So, let’s say terrorists were constantly attacking the U.S. in Texas and other Southern states. Let’s also assume that these terrorists were being funded and trained by Mexico. Just across the border, there’s a large training camp for terrorists.
How long do you think it would take for the U.S. to smash that training camp?
Great post there Spavined Gelding. If I may, I’d just like to note something…
Assuming that you were referring to the USA in your last paragraph as being the only “power which can stop Isreal” from doing it what it wants, well, I rather think you’ve hit on a very insightful double edged sword there.
My perception of the cozy US-Jewish-Voting-bloc-cum-Israel buddy buddy thing is this - I have a hunch that most non Israeli’s in the Middle East are sufficiently well educated nowadays to know how the US voting system works. I’d wager that the cozy relationship that Israel has with the US is a viewed by most Middle East commentators as a bit like the schoolyard bully who likes to pick fights with anyone he wants because he knows that he’s got a a really big brother prepared to back him up.
Now, I know, I know - the truth is far from that being the case - but it’s a very important thing to note something here - the truth isn’t important on this issue. It’s the perception that counts. And my hunch is that most non-Israeli’s perceive the US as being Israel’s big brother - which by extension means that slowly but surely, more and more terrorist attacks are gonna hit home on the USA’s soil - all in the name of getting “even”.
Hence, in this context, eventually if it goes far enough, the majority of Americans are going to start putting HUGE pressure on the Jewish voting bloc to stop insisting that the US supports Isreal come hell or high water because ultimately, it means that the fight is coming home to US soil.
When that happens, you’ll start hearing jingoistic commentators within the USA asking questions of the Jewish lobby along the lines of “So, if you’re Jewish, what are you first and foremost? American, or an Israel supporter? You can’t have both…”
My prediction is that it wouldn’t take long for the tide to turn. I personally believe that this inordinate fear that American politicians have of losing the Jewish vote is largely an untested one. When push comes to shove, if having the Jewish vote means inviting further terrorist attacks on US Soil, I don’t think you’d have to be a rocket scientist to see how that would pan out.
Possibly. Or possibly the US backs up Israel even more and gives Israel even more free reign. The latter is more likely than the former. Though, the former isn’t impossible.
Highly doubtful.
And once again, ignorant theories from a non-USAer abound. First off, it’s not the Jewish vote per se that politicians care about. Jews just don’t make up a significant amount of the population for people to care about their vote, especially outside major urban areas like LA and NYC. And the party who supports Israel most ardently is the Republicans, while Jewish support tends to run towards the Democrats. So there’s a disconnect there.
The Jewish lobby is influential because of the amount of money and advertising they put out here. I’m not sure if it is Israel itself or an NGO, but there are television advertisements running fairly regularly about how Israel is America’s friend and why the US should support Israel. Fundamental Christians are also very heavy supporters of Israel. And there’s the realization that we’d probably do the same thing if we were in Israel’s shoes.
No, until the Arab states get a better PR machine going here and lay out their greivances rationally to the US public, they will always play second fiddle to Israel.
I think it would go exactly the opposite of what you predict. The Israelis at least claim to be supporters of the US in the ME. The Arabs, on the other hand, tend to publicly villify, attack, and blame the US for any misfortune coming their way.
Jews are not a large percentage of the US population but aside from the super-orthodox types, they look and act just like anyone else. Arabs, on the other hand, don’t.
My belief is that if push comes to shove, the US will unleash the Israelis on the Arabs and back them up with intelligence data and logistical support. I personally don’t agree with that philosophy but that is what I believe will happen.
Regards
Testy
Neurotik - I suspect my point got a bit muddy there. My previous post revolved around the what if? scenario of trying to second guess the next actions by non-Israeli’s who are pissed off about things.
It seems to me that what counts is that regardless of the reality of Jewish lobbying power within the USA, regardless of how much you might wish to believe that my non-USA viewpoint is inherently some sort of ignorant theory - something you can’t ALSO influence are the bitter, disenfranchised non-Israeli’s in the Middle East who would like to take the fight to the USA’s home soil just to make their point - namely, that Israel wouldn’t be the power she is without America’s de facto support.
Accordingly, I truly believe that 9/11 won’t be the last of such things sadly. And that’s a dreadful thought. But I’ll bet the planning is going down as we speak.
And whilst it’s a great thing that you and I can talk here on this board and graciously concede where our viewpoints might need some brushing up, I doubt very much that those ratbags who would like to do nasty shit in some restaurant in Time Square say, well they’re not gonna care about what the true reality of the Jewish voting lobby is. All they’re thinking is that the USA is held ransom by those Jewish voters - coz that’s the propaganda, you know?
My suspicion is that the voluminous emnity we’re currently seeing is going to extend beyond Israel soon enough. Indeed, The Black September effort at Munich in 1972 was a pittance. That was just about bringing world attention to the plight of Palestinian refugees living in squalid mud in refugee camps.
Nowadays, the US is perceived by many in the Middle East as being the bank roller who keeps Israel afloat. 9/11 proved that anything is possible. And when those possibilities manifest themselves, I’ll wager that the inherent support of Israel within US politics will come under incredible questioning as to whether it is indeed, in the long run, a wise policy.
Interestingly Neurotik (and please be aware that I’m not singling you out - merely enjoying an informative debate) but it’s worth noting that your example of the Israeli “buddy” TV advertisements on US TV actually confirms my initial stance - namely, that perception is the battle here.
I ask this… if you were an angry young Palestinian man and someone told you about the Israeli “buddy TV ads” on US TV, and then they told you “See? The USA is just a puppet of those Israeli dogs!”, you’d probably be quite convinced that the situation was beyond redemption - given the culture in the West Bank, and the last 50 years of history.
But as I said in my initial post, I recognise that such Palestinian rehtoric isn’t the truth - of course it isn’t. But in the interests of fairness, one simply has to ask, just what is the REAL purpose of such TV advertisements on US TV? I mean really? By any yardstick, they’re extremely contrived and manipulative - and their very existence merely lends more ammunition to the propaganda that the USA has become hi-jacked by the Israeli lobbying bloc within the USA - (whatever amorphous group of people that might be).
So, I guess what I’ve been trying to say all along is this - the fact that such lobbying exists, the fact that such TV ads exist, the fact that the USA has openly supported Israel for years now, both economically and militarily - well the propaganda I’d suggest amongst Palestinians is that it’s a done deal. That is, that the USA is totally, irreversibly in Israel’s lap - and by extension, unfortunately you Americans are now a valid target.
Hence, if a fleet of suicide bombers started walking into Manhattan restaurants on Friday nights - how long would it take for those TV ads to get pulled huh? How long would it take for those TV ads to become the focal point for a nationwide chorus of “you jewish people? What have you got us into?”
I’m not saying that such a hypothetical situation is a noble one - far from it - but when people are threatened, people always look for scapegoats - and a concerted well-organised campaign of sleeper cells and suicide bombers in Manhattan restaurants would unleash all sorts of recriminations and vilifications.
And that’s what I find interesting - because if little old dumb me in Southport, Australia has thought of this - I bet you London to a brick that some very zealous Palestinian Hamas cum Hezbollah dudes are probably planning it.
And most interestingly of all - Osama bin Laden never played the Palestinian card over 9/11 to it’s fullest degree. Indeed, he concentrated far more on getting US forces out of Saudi Arabia from what I can tell. That, and prattling on about his dreams of an Islamic wonderland. But mark my words, if a concerted campaign of suicide bombers started hitting US streets in the name of Palestine, you Americans would probably have zero, zilch, zip empathy in the Arab world. And I suspect there would be an AWFUL lot of dancing in Arab streets too.
Your only saving grace at the moment is the tyranny of distance - but nothing lasts forever. If the Israel-Palestinian shitfight continues, and the US continues to openly take sides - the fight will come to the US - somehow, in some way. Assuming the sleeper cells aren’t already in place.
The problem for you Americans is this - basically you’ve got some real loose cannons in Israeli politics these days just constantly giving the middle finger to the rest of the Middle East, and the moment it gets hot, they scream “N’yah N’yah” and then run behind the safety of your legs. Those 1967 border issues aren’t gonna go away.
For you Americans? That’s not a good position to be in if you ask me.
This “Israeli lobby” thing, or “Zionist lobby” thing, has got to stop. If you go back to when I started posting on the SDMB you’d find I used to compare the Israelis to the Spaniards, and Palestinian kids to the Indians.
Not my finest moment. That was August, 2001. Well, things have changed. The bloody campaign of terror bombing we are still in, and something in Septemeber of that year, has changed many Americans minds about the intentions of Islamic extremists throughout the region.
Plenty of Americans don’t need any Zionist to tell us who is out to destroy us, and who isn’t.
The important question here is WHY ‘they’ are out to destroy us.
I’m not sure “why” matters once someone decides they want to destroy you. At that point it’s fight or die. Rationales vary from terrorist to terrorist, but I don’t much care about what those extremists think because pretty clearly they won’t settle for anything less than the destruction of Israel and the United States. Listening to what ‘they’ say is helpful in determining what ‘they’ think. In this case, UBL’s fatwah and the constant calls for the destrction of the Great and Little Satans pretty much make the “why” irrelevant.
I’m fine with killing them for a while. Israel tried the roadmap and it led to a bus bomb, as usual. Negotiating with the extremists is pointless.
Beagle, you do recognize there’s a difference between “Jew,” “Israeli” and “Zionist,” though. The warplanes buzzing Beirut as I type this do not, in my mind, represent The Torah any more than Palestinian suicide bombers represent The Holy Qur’an.
Boo Boo Foo, you have far too much faith in the American public. The summary reaction, should suicide bombings occur with frequency on American soil, will be Arab Internment. The average American somehow still thinks September 11 was precipitated by Saddam Hussein. Suicide bombings will be viewed, and crammed down our throats in easy-to-digest morsels, as due directly to “the evildoers’ hatred of freedom.”
Two ways to view it: the US is either terribly misguided in its backing of Israel’s mission of sovereignty and security or is, in a very sinister way, allowing Israel to foment instability in the Middle East in order to ensure American Policy is represented and defended there.
And as I typed this, a new piece of the puzzle just showed up on my mobile: two days before the missile strike into Syria, the White House suddenly placed a key piece of legislation on the calendar of the House International Relations Committee. As of right now, it’s passed the HIRC and is on its way to “surely pass” the House and Senate.
The Syria Accountability Act would press sanctions aginst Syria in the event Syria does not:[ul][]Stop producing chemical and bilogical weapons []Pull troops out of Lebanon End its support of terrorism[/ul]I assume these sanctions will be pressed just as soon as a bomber claiming membership in Islamic Jihad blows up another cafe or bus. And with the latest call-ups of reservists, Israel has, so to speak, set the fuze.
For a long time, I would have never made that comparison, but in the run-up to the latest Iraqi invasion it appears that pressure from the corporate underwriters suppressed any dissent from the jingoistic “company-line”. I’ll admit they have longer “intellectually” appealing coverage on any subject instead of the standard sound bites and photo ops you get from CNN/Foxnews, but the reporting before the Iraqi invasion was unbalanced, and from what has for so long seemed like a very intelligent source, that struck me as calculated. But I admit, that is strickly an opinion.
Two ways to view it ?
Here’s another view, that is much more likely: The US backs Israel, because the US finds Israel to be in the right, and the other side to be in the wrong.
Israel has stated that more attacks are possible, and good for them.
Might spread out into a regional conflict ? Duh, so what ? It has already been a regional conflict for over 50 years, with Israel on one side, and all those other undemocratic/oppresive states on the other side. Israel has been far too patient in dealing with their enemies for a long time, and it’s about time that they take action against those who wish to destroy them, it’s called common sense.
Why should a whole slew of countries be allowed to wage continuous war against Israel, without Israel taking any action whatsoever back at these same nations ?
The whole mideast is a mess, it’s time to straighten it out once and for all, imo.
DaisyCutter you have a consistent world view I grant you but it’s not exactly sophisticated it is? Your world seems divided into right and wrong, scumbags and heros, those-that-can-do-no-wrong and non-Americans/Israelis.
When you capable of recognising shades of grey debating with you on these boards might be a whole lot more intellectually rewarding to both sides of the argument. I think is unlikely that you will substantially alter your views nor that those you rail against will do so either sufficient to satisfy you.
There are other viewpoints too, for example that the option exists that possibly Israeli and the surrounding Arab states might just both be wrong and both might be incompatible with what you might call “free democratic western values”?
I agree it is a mess, “although straightening it out once and for all” will never be accomplished by the defeat of either side in my opinion. More likely is that if and when each side sees that nobody is going to sort it out for them and they are ultimately on their own militarily and financially (and that would take the US disengaging from their stategic alliance with Israel) then there might build an opportunity for a settlement.
Well, I agree with you notquitekarpov, I certainly see this particular issue as black/white, just as I see the whole terrorism/USA issue as black/white. I do see certain other issues as having some shades of grey in between, but in regards to the Mideast conflict, I pretty much see it as black/white. Now the interesting part, is that I probably have read just as much about the situation as any other poster who comes with the shades of grey. It seems that many people here cannot counter my arguments, so I am constantly bombarded with, “you are ignorant”, “you are a bigot”, “your view is not very sophisticated”. :eek:
Now of course, a whole bunch of people having “grey” views on various topics, might possibly lead to more interesting & perhaps longer debates, but this does not make these people’s viewpoints anymore valid than those who hold a black/white view on the issue. Some people cut to the chase while others prefer to write 500 pages of nonsense about the “grey” areas, without really solving anything, or offering any solutions, or valid arguments. You know the old saying “quality, not quantity”
And I don’t care if some see my viewpoints as “unsophisticated”. I don’t partake in these debates to be seen as sophisticated, I’m more interested in right/wrong. Sophistication is better left for useless snobs. I’m not here to impress a mostly liberal crowd with my debating skills. I do have a cite for that, in case anyone of the many lefties who question my every move here, should ask for one.
I am merely debating, and countering other arguments put forth by other posters. If somebody has a problem with something I write they are free to ask for a cite if I allege something that they find to be false/suspicious, and they are also free to offer a rebuttal to anything I write, if they are able to. I am also free to debunk their rebuttal of course.
And in regards to your assertion that a good solution would be for both sides to be on their own militarily and financially, this has sort of been played out already. Israel didn’t receive any help from the US at all until decades later, after its conception in 1948.
So all those early wars, which were perpetrated by hordes of countries against Israel, were done so without Israel receiving any help from the US, and they still managed to humiliate/defeat/repell the invaders. So, I don’t think your solution will change much at all really. The enemies of Israel will still want to push them out into the sea regardless, and Israel will continue to defeat them, if needed.
And, actually, I kind of would love to see that scenario play out, not for the reasons that most people have, who constantly say “cut off US support for Israel”, but for the reason that Israel obviously is operating with silk gloves on, in handling certain situations. Israel being on it’s own for awhile, and not having to worry about any pressure from anybody else (the US) would be a positive thing perhaps, as they will be able to crush their enemies (the terrorists for starters). I bet if this scenario played out, those very same people who are calling for “US support of Israel to stop” (they want to see Israel weaker obviously), will be the same people calling for “Gee, let’s get some US support of Israel happening again, so we can put their silk gloves back on.” 
Virtually everytime Israel has been close to crushing its enemies in the past, various third parties have always stepped in, and saved the very people who deserved to get crushed, as they were the instigators.
So, no US support for Israel or any of the other countries in that region anymore ? Highly unlikely in regards to the real world situation, but an interesting scenario, which I think would have quite the opposite effect that most people think it would.
Daisycutter please. My saying that your world view is not very sophisticated is a very long way from saying, as others may have, that
[quote]
“you are ignorant”,“you are a bigot”[/unquote] and not in itself abusive.
The fact your confirm your see the issues you mention as black and white shows me better than anything that it is not worth debating with you, at least on this thread. The terms of reference you set - that the issue is black/white good/evil - are not ones that allow proper debate.
You can insult me if you like by suggesting I am one of your
[quote]
“useless snobs”[/unquote] but that isn’t exactly a skillful debating skill either. But I won’t follow down that road.
Are you really saying you believe that the US did not provide Israel with any support until decades after their 1948 unilateral declaration of independence? Decades means at least two, right? That puts us at 1968, agreed, after the 1967 War?
Before I, and others, bother to disprove such an obviously ludicrous statement do you want to clarify your post or even possibly retract?
I define US support as not only direct governmental financial and military support but also the preferential treatment I understand that personal donations to Israel enjoys under US tax law, being non charitably and yet tax deductible effectively meaning the US taxpayer subs the donation. Without the totality of such US support Israel would not remain the regional superpower it currently is for very long (I could cite but am out here weeks before my seafreight and so without my books).
Lastly for now, you are aware of course of the history of the creation of Israel, of their terrorist actions against the UK as Mandate holders. Do you not see the possibility of a “shade of grey”, who knows even irony, there. That the US should now be such an uncritical supporter of a country whose whole formation arose from terrorist action.
Oh, and just a final request. Cut down on the smilies please - it could be taken as making you look smug or at least rather too pleased with yourself.
There are Israelis, Zionists, Jews, and lobbyists. Sometimes the categories overlap, I’m not denying that. But, the idea that US public opinion is being controlled behind the curtain by some Jewish Wizards of Oz(stein) is ri-di-cu-lous. I don’t agree that bringing on the “end times” is a good reason to support Israel. But there you have it, one oddball reason some Americans support Israel. Others see Israel as the only democracy with civil rights protection in the region. There are some upstart democracies in the works, of course.
Many people don’t believe that anything but the destruction of Israel and the United States will satisfy the radical clerics that form the intelligentsia (using that term loosly) of the Islamist movement. They do hate our freedom. Secular rebublican democracy and totalitarian theocratic government don’t mix.
Sure, I would love to see the Israelis withdraw to the 1967 lines and have all the neighboring countries send them a collective fruit basket. The Islamic terrorists will subsequently renouce their calls for the destrction of Israel and quit terrorism.
If that happens, let me be the first to congratulate the negotiators.
notquitekarpov, don’t worry, I’m not putting you in to the same category as certain troglodytes who are quick with the “ignorant”, “bigot” remarks.
As far as US support of Israel, not only did the US not support Israel in the beginning (I’m talking primarily military support here), but there was a US arms embargo against Israel in the beginning.
The first major military support of Israel, which I am aware of, was the airlift in 1973. I know Israel purchased a missile system from the US in the sixties, but this doesn’t fall under support, if Israel paid for it. There may have been some other US military support of Israel prior to when I stated which I am unaware of, but that would not change the big picture at all. I see you are hung up on my “decades” statement. Well, it may have been 19 years, it may have been 25 years, or whatever, depending upon how one arrives at that figure. Regardless, this doesn’t change anything.
As far as terrorism and the creation of Israel, yeah, I am aware of the history behind the formation of that country.
It is also worth to point out that some of these people were deemed “the enemy of the Jewish people”, which Ben Gurion (Israels first prime minister) described the Irgun as, after the hotel bombing. Hardly the same scenario as the Palestinians, where terrorists are praised by the majority, and it is their basically their official policy. I have taken most things into account, before arriving at my black/white viewpoints.
And no, I won’t stop using smilies, as I like them, and I don’t just place them in random places inorder to make my posts colorful. I place them at the end of certain statements/sentences, where they are appropriate.
And yes, I am pretty pleased with myself. Is that a crime ?
I see the colorless Daisy Cutter is overhere now…
Still in your Good vs. Evil rhetoric I see. Then why don’t you entertain us with why Israel is “good” ? Please do. I might understand the USA being “good” since they saved us from “evil” communism… and they certainly were loaded with useful ideology. Now Israel ? Besides being hounded by their neighbors and keeping arabs on their toes… what makes them “good” ?
I can name one thing: they are a liberal democracy, rated “free” by Freedom House, while their neighbors are uniformly totalitarian and “not free”, according to Freedom House.
France is a liberal democracy and its still “evil” to these guys…