Israel's nuclear weapons

Assuming Israel does have nuclear weapons (nudge, nudge, wink wink), how were they tested? I doesn’t seem that there are any verifiable nuclear explosions for testing that can be attributed to Israel, beyond the shadow of a doubt.

I know about the Vela flash, but again, it seems that there is enough doubt that it can’t be attributed to Israel.

So how did the Israelis manage this?

Israeli nuclear testing.

Interesting article. I had always assumed that we (the USA) had sold (or given) nuclear weapons to the Israelis.

Cite?

I doubt that. IIRC Israeli nuclear capacities predate the US-Israel alliance (well, the relationship was in the making, but nothing close to the extent of what that alliance is today). Since for some time Israel and France cooperated heavily on nuclear research, I assume, at least in regard of testing, that they were using the data collected by the French tests.
That said, I dont see how they managed to keep their nukes updated without any testing since the late fifties.

ETA: lol, Rojelio, in the limited edit time window you managed to edit your post to say exactly the contrary of what you first wrote.

Yeah, sorry about that. A quick scan of the wiki article set me straight. That’ll teach me to find my cites before posting instead of after.

The point of nuclear weaponry is it is inherently a game of chicken. Israel likely may have nuclear weapons; may have lots of them; they may have been tested; they may actually work. How badly does anyone want to find out? There’s only one way to find out.

Given the general competence that Israel has shown in everything (except in managing the Palestinian occupied territories), if I were dictator-for-life of Syria or Jordan or Saudi Arabia, I would not bet the country to find out, when odds are they will work.

Contrary to it being constantly said, the US did NOT give, sell, trade nuclear weapons to Israel. Ever.

Think about it. What do you think would have happened if the USSR had given nukes to Egypt or Syria? The West (The US, The UK and NATO) would have demanded their immediate return. At the threat of forcibly removing them themselves. In other words, starting WWIII! Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis?

Well if we had given them to Israel the Soviets would have done the same. And Europe & Britain would not have supported us. It would have weakened The US militarily (losing the support of Europe & The UK), politically (the biggest superpower getting caught violating one of its prime directives, non-proliferation), economically (an even longer total OPEC embargo), and all for what gain? None what-so-ever.

The US certainly is very pro-Israel (as we should be) and feelings like those certainly run deep. IOW I don’t doubt that Israel had a somewhat easier time acquiring some nuclear secrets from America because of a lot of diplomats, scientists, military men etc. looking the other way. But I’m sure back in the day Britain and to a lesser amount France did too. Hell, more than a few of Oppenheimer’s ‘long-hairs’ shared secrets with the freakin’ Russians!

I think the Vela flash was indeed a joint Israeli - South African nuclear bomb test. South Africa has large Uranium ore deposits, and they conclusively admitted that they indeed had built & stockpiled about a half dozen Uranium ‘gun-design’ nuclear bombs (which they destroyed when the Apartheid system collapsed). I think they traded Uranium to Israel in exchange for help in building a small nuclear arsenal. But even that isn’t saying that South Africa ‘gave’ Israel nukes!

Israel is a fully modern, Western, prosperous, democratic society that also happens to have no shortage of brilliant scientists, fiercely loyal citizens, and supportive like-minded individuals world-wide. And they also happen to be completely surrounded on all three sides by openly hostile enemies all of whom declared war on Israel literally the moment it was founded. And except for one, never ‘un-declared’ war on them (to this day).

What more likely a scenario could there be for a country being able to successfully build a homegrown nuke?

Maybe the Roswell aliens traded Israel nukes for some delicious hu-man bay-gaals & krem chiss…

If Israel managed to obtain the plans for an American nuclear weapon that has been tested, they need only build it according to those plans and they have every right to expect that it will work. I think it’s safe to say that Israel long ago obtained said plans.

And even if they didn’t, so what? The simple truth is that there are no secrets in science. Nuclear physics is well understood by the people that have devoted their lives to its study. They need only build a bomb that can be delivered. it doesn’t have to be elegant, it can be over-engineered to a fare-thee-well and be an oversized monstrosity, and yet they can still be sure that it will work.

I wouldn’t want to be the Arab country that decides to find out if they work, I’ll tell you that much. And thus they do their job. If they believe that Israel has a nuclear bomb and the will to use it, they would have to assume that they work, and only a crazy person would attack Israel under those circumstances.

Perhaps the Rosenbergs…

I’ve never heard anything about that. Do you have a source?

No, I was being a shmuck. :slight_smile:

I’m going to assume that tests outside of the supposed Negev and Vera incidents were conducted over the big blue wet things and the U.S. and Russia and whomever else that may be in the know just haven’t made a stink about it.

That being said, Israel does have nuclear weapons and it’s a well-known not secret that they were supposedly in play (as in, an option) during the YK war.

Israel would use them. Without a doubt.

I also echo what Airman said. Crappy nukes are still nukes. Besides, Israel has made its way in the world on technology and medicine. It would be silly to think their shit didn’t work. And I’m sure they have a few Russian and Chinese nukes in their arsenal as well.

Our (USA) first nuclear bomb (Hiroshima) was never tested beforehand. They were confident enough in the science behind it to just use it. And that was 60+ years ago, with much less knowledge about nuclear reactions, and without computerized simulation testing on supercomputers.

Presumably, the Israelis are going on these:

  • confidence in the design without testing
  • testing via computer simulation
  • or, stealing a design or test data from another country that HAS done tests.

If I could nitpick, we did engage in nuke testing before Hiroshima. It just wasn’t a uranium-based test.

True, they weren’t **entirely **sure it would work, but they had good cause to think so.

anywho. Israel has the option of firing several weapons via missile launch, so if one or two were duds, the rest would do the work. :confused:

OK, the simple version is, Israel tested in the ocean below South Africa, with South Africa’s assistance.
The number is theorized at 200 and all turnkey clean nukes.
That is the open source stuff.
The classified stuff would put me under Manning’s cell.
That said, I’d not insert disinformation on SD. But, I’ll neither confirm nor deny things classified.

The VELA satellite saw a double flash. How would an underwater detonation being detected if the flash is masked by steam? In addition, the US Navy had hydrophones wired for Soviet subs, but they would have easily picked up the blast from an underwater explosion (that part is open sourced, BTW). I think it was an above surface detonation, IIRC.

OK, its been pretty much established that Israel has nukes.

What about a reliable delivery system that would get a few into Tehran past Iran’s defenses?

Remember the kid who flew a Cessna into Red Square during the Cold War? I think that treeline-level flying would be enough.

There’s also smuggling… The old “plain green van with stolen licence plates” delivery vehicle. Iran is pretty strict, but they do have an import/export market other than oil, don’t they? Hide the bomb in a big crate of tennis shoes from Indonesia or whatever…

That’s the scenario that scares me, here at home…

Trinopus

Israel’s got ballistic missiles…the Jericho II and Jericho III, and they also have 3 Dolphin class subs able to launch nuclear cruise missiles, one of which is sitting permanently in the Persian Gulf.

An interesting Federation of American Scientists article: Nuclear Weapons - Israel