Or is that just a stereotype in general?
Wagner I’d guess.
I wouldn’t know as I could never sit through an entire Wagner piece.
No, it hasn’t been traced to any particular opera.
Here’s Dave Wilton of Word Origins :
"The phrase was first used in column by sportswriter Dan Cook in 1976. Cook’s column, which appeared in the San Antonio News-Express, was about the San Antonio Spurs, a professional basketball team. But Cook didn’t coin the phrase; he may have added the bit about the opera, but he didn’t create the phrase all on his own.
That same year, the phrase Church ain’t out 'till the fat lady sings appears in a pamphlet titled Southern Words and Sayings, by Fabia and Charles Smith.
Given that no one has found a citation earlier than 1976 indicates that the phrase, in whatever form, is probably not much older than that. It is more likely a folksy-sounding invention, rather than a traditional Southern expression. Both variants are from the Southern US, although the Smiths don’t indicate what part of the South the Church variant is from. And since they appear nearly simultaneously, we can’t tell which version is the original."
When I think of the phrase I envision a fat lady in full Viking gear…blond braids, horned helmet, leather bodice with cast-iron double E cups…singing;
“Hi-oh to-hooooWAH!”
Brunhilda?
I 've always thought it had something to do with old movies.
Look at the classic Marx Brothers comedies–they are still funny today, (and must have been even funnier in their day)–but they have an incredibly annoying tendency to feature fat ladies singing.
In the 1920’s the idea of a talking picture was still new, so part of the interest was just seeing the latest hi-tech innovation: voices singing, just like a “real” performance of a live person. So the audience was willing to sit through a totally unecessary diversion that had very little to do with the plot.
(just my guessing here–so if I’m totally off base, dont blame me. Blame the Marx brothers)
This cd I have pops to mind.
Many’s vision of opera were formed by viewing the movieBig Broadcast of 1938, featuring a clip of Kirsten Flagstad in full Brunhilde armor and horned helmet, waving a spear while singing “Ho-jo-toho-o-o!”
Just to mention one of my probable misconceptions, I used to think it had to do with Kate Smith whose When the moon comes over the mountain was a sign-off song for some show or other.
In later years I’ve been convinced it’s an opera cliche’ for the fat lady to do the wrap-up. I imagine one specific opera may have been involved way back when, but the cliche’ probably had plenty of reasons to become more generalized.
I love Enola Straight’s description above of the Wagner gal with the cast-iron E cups. Wonder if Madonna got inspired by that…
I listened to Ride Of The Valkyries this morning. Valkyries chose heroes from the dead to fight for Odin at a great battle that was to have happened at the End of the World. I don’t know enough about the opera to know how it goes after the ‘ride’; but if Brünnhilde (or her sisters) are cleaning up after a battle, and if Brünnhilde were… er, ‘zaftig’, then maybe that has something to do with it?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Fat Lady Sings were a rock band from Dublin, Ireland. They recorded at least 2 albums in the early 1990s.
OPERA AIN’T OVER TILL THE FAT LADY SINGS, THE – “The outcome of any contest isn’t known until the final results are in. Thus, don’t make premature judgments or give up too soon. Often associated with Wagnerian opera, specifically Brunhilde’s ‘Fire Song,’ in ‘Die Walkure,’ and the fact that Wagner may seem interminable to nonaficionados. Thus one’s impatience would be relieved when ‘the fat lady sings.’ Originated in the United States in the 1970s. Bartlett’s ‘Familiar Quotations’ attributes the coinage to San Antonio TV sports commentator Dan Cook. Ralph Graves claims in the August 1991 issue of ‘Smithsonian’ that it has its roots in Southern proverbial lore: 'Church ain’t out till the fat lady sings. There are still other attributions, but nobody really knows who coined this popular saying.” From the “Random House Dictionary of Popular Proverbs and Sayings” (1996) by Gregory Y. Titelman (Random House, New York, 1996).
I agree with Zeldar, that I always assumed it meant Kate Smith. She ended a lot of shows in her Florida home venues with God Bless America
Star Wars prequels, anyone?
I always assumed that it was a reference to Brunhilda. Is “Fire Song” at the end of Die Walkure?
I’ve seen photos of Maria Callas when she was rather large herself and read that she had a tapeworm that caused her to lose weight.
Now I’m imagining Bugs Bunny in What’s Opera, Doc, with Bugs Bunny as Brunnhilde and Elmer Fudd as Siegfried. The animators made the brilliant choice of making Bug’s horse zaftig, since he couldn’t be…
You guys should all check out this awesome column in the Chicago Reader.
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_243b.html
By the way, just to make it clear, the Valkyrie don’t wear steel braziers. Those her tits.
And this is the quintessential beauty in the female form. (If you are a ancient Rhine man.)
Tris
Margaret Dumont signs a few bars of the Freedonian National Anthem at the end of Duck Soup and the Marxes pelt her with fruit.
But that wasn’t an opera. Nor are there fat ladies singing in A Night at the Opera (the villain there is a male opera singer, and Kitty Carlisle was young and beautiful). Nor are there any other fat ladies signing opera in any of their other movies. Or singing much of anything at all.
In short, I don’t think the Marxes have anything to do with it. There are a million other cultural references to fat ladies singing opera. Bulk literally helps to cerate a stronger and better projecting voice. That’s why male opera singers also tend to be fat.
I bet to hell they don’t!