Right, must have just imagined last month’s promotion, then…
That wouldn’t be a problem: if someone has not spoken up at all and has not demonstrated any knowledge and has not been introduced as the/an expert, it makes sense to not expect them to be the expert. The problem is when people (and I don’t care if it’s due to gender, age, nationality, height or taste in tee-shirts) are treated as unimportant, unskilled and inexperienced after they have demonstrated expert knowledge, spoken up, people have pointed out that particular person happens to be the expert…
What’s even more annoying is when women do this to other women. I’ve lost count of how many times Ive seen my female boss advise her female subordinates to consult with white men outside the team, even though experts within the team are more than able to help. But those experts are women, so they obviously can’t be trusted or something.
I once interviewed a guy who did this.
My co-worker “Bill” and I were the interview panel. Bill would ask a question, the interviewee would turn to Bill and give an answer. I’d ask a question. He’d turn to Bill and give an answer. I’d another question. He’d turn to Bill to ask some followups - I gave the follow up clarifications and he turned back to Bill to answer them.
He was not hired.
I get potential customers as couples, I make it a point to direct my comments and answers to both of them. Quite literally looking at the fella for one comment, then looking at the gal with the next, back and forth. Very occasionally the fella will be a bit miffed, but overwhelmingly often the gal is so pleased that the sale is made. Our community is small enough where word spreads around that a woman will get an honest fair deal from me and I’ll talk to her face, not her breasts.
The downside is 2/3’s my business is with women … where a guy will ask if I can fix this, a woman is compelled to explain every last detail in how it got broke in the first place as though that information is of critical important as to whether I can fix it or not. I understand it’s sad you missed your cousin when she was in town three years ago, but it’s still gonna cost $50 to fix the latch on your gate.
Still, just treating peoples equally shouldn’t be a profoundly profitable reputation, I cry the Allegheny driving to the bank.
Velomont, as one of the early younger feminists, I thank you for your inclusive actions on the part of your co-worker, Caroline. It’s sad that, so many years on now, this sort of thing is still required, but it is.
As HR Manager at my location, I’ve got a fair amount of stroke. There are only 3 other people here who outrank me. Yet, repeatedly, if I happen to be walking through the lobby when a guest arrives, or if I’m the first to walk into an interview room when a candidate is waiting to be interviewed, I’ll get asked to fetch a cup of coffee and hang up the person’s coat. Of course I’ll do it, quietly, but I confess to getting a real pleasure out of walking back into the interview room later and introducing myself as the person the candidate has to impress today.
It’s gotten better - this automatic assumption that if you’re female, you’re a service worker - at least among my American colleagues and clients. But when folks from our worldwide facilities are visiting, there isn’t the slightest hesitation. A woman is there to be of service to men. Even when they know what my position is, they will still call on me to help them with cabs, change their travel reservations, one even wanted me to take his laundry home and wash it over night.
I feel good that my generation has advanced the cause of women in this country at least a little. But there is still a long way to go, and yes, we do still sometimes need to be propped up by our male colleagues - more’s the pity.
It’s about time that a resource like this came along to help women enter the world of JavaScript programming. The barrier up until now has been book after book explaining how to embed JavaScript using a penis, I assume.
I used to get the same sort of treatment in Japan because I wasn’t Japanese so obviously I wouldn’t understand. My ex-wife would resort to looking away and refusing to engage them. It was beyond frustrating and well into infuriating.
Is it possible that Expert Guy, ignorantly enough, doesn’t recognize the status of your co-worker in the meeting because she is a woman. If so, has it been communicated with them?
I’ve been in similar situations, but I generally just tell the other person outright that they should really be talking to my wife or female co-worker. Trying to be subtle about it doesn’t work with Those People.
The reviews on that book are priceless. “None of your suggestions worked for me because I couldn’t enter the code with my sausage-like man-fingers.”
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A thought that occurred to me for this type of person is if maybe it’s some sort of compensation in that he realizes he’s a little dismissive of women at some level, doesn’t like it, and so asserts at some level that he believes strongly in feminism hoping that his actions will follow. Sort of like how it so often seems that many of the strongest anti-Gay activists have closeted urges or sometimes people that are really strong for racial equality for one race can be racist or bigoted against another race. Sometimes it’s difficult for an intellectually held opinion to really sink into one’s behavior.
This is sort of my thought. I’ve in technology my whole adult life, but it doesn’t seem related to STEM at all that the people who are reserved tend to not be seen as much as experts as others simply because people have less to judge them on. If the woman in the OP is very serious and humorless, especially if she’s reserved, maybe the expert guy just isn’t all that comfortable with conversing with her or isn’t as sold on her competence for reasons having little or nothing to do with her gender. After all, most people will naturally gravitate toward more gregarious people, and studies have consistently shown that, on average, people that are taller or more attractive, etc. are perceived as smarter, more competent, better leaders.
I definitely agree with this, but generally at a certain point it would seem to me that for most couples, one will defer more of the decisions to another for particular matters. Do you still try to include both when it becomes clear one is far less knowledgeable or interested than the other?
And… this to is the sort of thing that makes the issues with women in STEM worse, not better. There’s nothing gender specific about coding, maybe their intent was to try to be more inclusive to women in technology, but it serves the opposite purpose by implying that women need some sort of special treatment. And, hell, maybe there’s actually good stuff in there that men could benefit from too, but they won’t even pick it up.
Absolutely … without hesitation … even if the woman is hiding behind her husband peeking around his shoulder … I will step over to the side so I can address her directly. If the woman isn’t there, I insist the husband go get her so I can explain the deal to her. If the husband has a problem with that, fine, there’s the door … find someone else to do the work … I’m too busy for that kind of horseshit.
You’d think just common courtesy would be enough.
And if she were friendly and gregarious, we could argue she did not come across as serious.
We could come up with several possible interpretations, or we could trust the word of the OP (that should be easy, he seems to be a man), if not the reported experiences of several women.
I can tell if **watchwolf **is serious, but my answer would be yes. Just because someone does not engage does not mean they are not interested, or even knowledgeable. They might be bored with being patronized for contravening gender based stereotypes, for example.
You might be onto something, there.