Does the drill instructor have the capability to train his troops and assess their skills without doing all that stuff? If he does, then he’s not benevolent. If he doesn’t, then he’s not omnipotent.
An omnipotent god should never have to resort to a “lesser of two evils” decision.
Unless the troops regard passing as (at least partially) a reward for their efforts. Rewards have to be earned. The hard way.
Not if the drill instructor is omnipotent.
It rather depends on if they had any choice in the matter.
Let’s say I brutally assualt someone, then offer to buy them a car. Even if the victim considers that I’ve made amends, they would still consider my earlier action to be evil. I can’t justify it by giving a reward.
If we choose suffering then the work-reward analogy might work. But alas, it doesn’t.
Nope, regardless if the drill instructor is omnipotent.
If it’s not earned, it’s not a reward.
We did choose this life, at least according to Muslims* (not sure about the other religions). What’s your Islamic-based defence?
Can you quote the exact lines, because I don’t see it. The paragraphs you’ve referenced seem to just assert we’re all aware of god, and acknowledged his god-ness before we were born.
It doesn’t seem to assert that we chose this life, or the suffering therein.
In any case, I think I conceded too much ground in implying that an omnimax benevolent god would give humans a choice of suffering for a reward.
Why would he give us options that have drawbacks? Why would he be a slave to rules like “Rewards must be earned”? He makes the rules.
So are you trying to say that god is like Brahman or the Pleroma?
Here’s a cite that states:
According to the Islamic narration, everyone (even you) said that Allah was worthy of worship. You can’t worship him if you’re not in existence.
Rewards have to be earned. God only does good. Giving “rewards” that haven’t been earned isn’t good, as in, the righteous thing to do, is it?
False premise. The correct question is:
Why does God want us to earn our rewards?
Which is, of course, much more easily answered.
[QUOTE=straggler;11378774
According to the Islamic narration, everyone (even you) said that Allah was worthy of worship. You can’t worship him if you’re not in existence.
[/quote]
Why not? You’re saying, that in this existence-before-existence, we can make choices, so I’d expect we’d be able to worship too.
Indeed, the very sections of the Qor’an that you’ve linked do very clearly say that we worshipped god prior to our earthly existence.
So, no, I still don’t see how this implies we chose a life including suffering.
Well, have I earned everything good that ever happened to me?
Clearly not everything good needs suffering first.
So why does anything good require suffering?
When I give my Beloved a present, I don’t make her walk on broken glass first.
Am I doing this wrong?
If you’re trying to dodge him, then responding to all of his posts is probably not the best tactic.
Sigh. It’s been said dozens of times in this thread. This argument does not disprove ‘god’, but only one particular definition of god. The existence of the kind of suffering we see in the world logically disallows a god that is defined as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. It’s says nothing about a god defined by only two of those traits, just all three.
How is a simulation in which you can’t really be hurt relevant?
No.
Because we all admitted (personally) that God is worthy of worship. We can’t worship him unless we are in existence. Admitting God is worthy of your worship is admitting you want to exist.
Strawman. I didn’t say every good thing “needs” suffering first. I said if it isn’t earned, it isn’t a reward.
Why not set up a system where you get a reward for doing good, instead of getting an reward for suffering?
Tell you what, I’ll let you answer your own question.
Why do you give your beloved presents?
According to the Abrahamic traditions, you get rewards for doing good as well.
I give her presents without making her suffer or work for them because love her unconditionally.
What is God’s excuse?
No, according to your own link, we did worship god prior to this life of suffering. So I ask again, how did we choose a life of suffering?
You give her presents as a kind of reward for the pleasant way she treats you, I presume?
What’s God’s excuse? Tell me what the drill instructor’s excuse is.