Unless the participants regarded “graduating” as reward for their efforts. Something that had to be earned.
According to Islam, you’ve chosen this existence, and there IS a reward.
False premise. God only does what is good, not what what he can’t get out of otherwise doing
God is not testing to find out answers. For someone who is one of the most vocal critics of religion on this board, your knowledge of religion seems pretty dim.
Eternal paradise is the ultimate reward. Rewards have to be earned. Explain how such a paradise could be earned in a world of no suffering.
True, some suffer more than others. Ultimately, it’s our character that is getting tested. Suffering is just one of the many tools at the tester’s disposal.
No idea. Some Christians seem to think so, others disagree.
Are you saying that some people live their entire lives without any suffering? Unless you’re referring to stillborn fetuses or, to be a bit more generous, some babies, that’s obviously not true.
Except people aren’t being given any choice in the matter, and the whole exercise is pointless. By your logic it would be perfectly moral to kidnap a woman off the street, rape her and force her into sexual slavery because you are giving her the “reward” of being a highly trained sex toy. The fact that she never asked for the “reward” or was given a choice in the matter is irrelevant; she should be grateful for her abuse at your hands.
That’s not just baseless like religions always are, but wrong on the face of it. I chose no such thing. And Islam is only one sect, anyway.
It’s not false; for an omnimax god inflicting any suffering at all is not good because it’s unnecessary.
No, it’s just that your ideas are foolish. If God isn’t “testing” for answers, then he isn’t “testing” at all, he’s just torturing.
It doesn’t need to be earned; an omnibenevolent god would just start and end with the eternal paradise.
And frankly, I don’t want ANYTHING from your demon god, even if he was real. Nor do I for one moment that a monster like you are speaking of would put anyone but fellow monsters in paradise, if them.
Why would an omnsicient God need to run any tests? He would already know the results.
Your inane question about whether “rewards need to be earned,” really ducks the question, since what we’re talking about is undeserved suffering.
Does everyone who suffers deserve it, or does God sometimes let people suffer who don’t deserev it?
Please spare me any more of your nonsensical obfuscations about how God is a even worse prick after death than in life. I’m asking you, IN LIFE is all suffering deserved?
Because here’s the thing, if God allows undeserved suffering, he has no right to impose any conditions for “reward.” He’s breaking his own rules. He’s a sinner. The worst of all time.
Incidentally, Paul said in the epistles that good deeds can’t save you, no matter how good a person you are, so it isn’t true (at least not according to your Bible), that Heaven cane be “earned.” Paul actually say that it can’t be earned. It’s just a gift
Read the thread. This whole discussion kicked off because I said to Mijin “We did choose this life, at least according to Muslims (not sure about the other religions). What’s your Islamic-based defence?”
Err, no, it’s quite correct, according to Islamic doctrine. You’re wrong.
Unless the “good” thing to do is ensure people earn their rewards. Explain how you earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering.
Or, to put it another way, rewards have to be earned.
Unless the idea that rewards have to be earned is good and righteous.
This is really just speculation, there’s no meat here for me to digest.
aaaaaannnnndddd here we go again. Because rewards have to be earned.
Explain how you can earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering.
Suffering is all part of the test. It’s a part of earning the reward.
According to God? Yes. But if you think earthly suffering is pretty severe, you need to widen your scope. On the suffering scale, earthy suffering isn’t even a 1.
Who said God allows undeserved suffering? I only defend the positions that I state, not the ones you ascribe to me.
The fact of the matter is, some people suffer much more than others.
So, what level of suffering is sufficient?
If it’s a low level, why does god inflict unnecessary extra suffering on the others? OTOH, if the most extreme suffering is necessary, then those of us who aren’t gang-raped every day, are doomed, come judgement day.
And you honestly think you successfully defended your point on that, don’t you?
This was the last thing you said on the matter:
“If you choose to worship God, you’re choosing to exist. I can’t put it any more clearly than that”.
Islamic doctrine is irrelevant. I am my memories; I began in this world, not some hypothetical pre-life.
A meaningless charade. An omnimax god wouldn’t created flawed beings to begin with. EVERYONE would be worthy, so there’s no point in a sadistic ritual to make people “earn” something. And if the mortals in question aren’t worthy, it’s only because God wanted them to be that way, which further underlines what a charade it is.
No, it’s just pointing out the obvious. You postulate a god who is a monster; it’s to be expected that he would behave as monstrously after life as he does during it.
An attitude that demonstrates yet again the utter evil of religion.
A principle that also makes Hell “meaningless”, since it could also be made worse. The suffering beings there could be enhanced to be able to suffer even more, for example; so they should stop whining. And by that logic we shouldn’t be concerned about hell, either. “Endless suffering ? Why, that’s nothing compared to endless suffering squared, so it’s silly to worry about it.”
The suffering that happens now, in the real world is just as bad regardless of the existence of an afterlife or not.
ALL suffering is undeserved if god is omnipotent & omniscient.
This is not an answer to my question. Why does God have to “test” people if he already knows what the results will be? He already knows everybody’s “character.” There is nothing he needs to learn (or even CAN learn) about a single human being.
Why should you have to earn it? I didn’t agree to any of these conditions, and your God has no moral right to impose them. He needs to earn MY approval, I don’t have to earn his.
Why does God need to run tests? He already knows the results? Why can’t he just let everybody into Heaven as is? Why do they have to “earn” it? Why do they have to be punished if they don’t earn it? What purpose does that serve? How can that be reconciled with a God who is good?
So everyone who was tortured and murdered in the holocaust deserved it? Everyone who was killed on 9/11 deserved it? Harlequin babies deserve it? That’s some lovely fucking God you’ve got there. Where exactly did God say this, by the way. When you say “according to God,” what soursce are yiu referring to? Did God tell you that personally? Does he have a blog? How did you come by his personal statement on the matter?
You really need to drop this angle. It’s asinine beyond belief. Suffering on earth is already profoundly bad and more than sufficient to refute an omnimax God. Arguing that God is more evil after death is hardly a defense that God is good. It is logically impossible for ANY evil or suffering to coexist with an omnimax God, and to try to belittle the worst evils that befall humanity is just obtuse and childish. If you can honestly say that absolutely no evil on earth disturbs you, then I’d even call your mentality sociopathic.
I said IF he does. Does he, yes or no? You apperently think he does not. If that’s the case, then there can be no such thing as immoral or evil behavior, because it’s impossible to do anything to another person that they don’t deserve.
Suffering is one tool that can be used to test character. I have no idea how much is the limit that God would ascribe one person on earth.
He doesn’t.
Nope.
Failed to convey it clearly enough… perhaps. Failed to avoid opponents who are more interested in knocking down strawmen… quite possibly. But failed to defend it? I don’t think so.
Part of worshiping God is to exist and worship him. Opting out of existence is not worshiping God, it’s not what God wants from us, hence, it’s not worship.
Err… but this whole line of conversation got started when I asked Mijin what his defence was of the Islamic position that we did exist before this life, and consented to worshiping God. Umm… yeah, I’d say that makes it relevant.
Only the Creator is perfect, everything else is, by necessity of logic, flawed.
Apparently there is, the omniscient being said so.
Divine pre-destination. Indeed, makes no sense to me, and I don’t defend it. Carry on.
Sure, he might. But he’s promising he won’t, and while his track record (to you) seems monstrous, his track record also shows he doesn’t break promises. So, who’s to know?
Or the narrow-mindedness of people who think that earthly suffering is anywhere near as bad as it can get.
We could argue about the many forms of endless suffering, but people experience temporary suffering should first be more interested in having an end to all suffering, don’t you think?
An irrelevant platitude.
Please explain how you earn in the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering.
Why, in spite of all my protest, are you insisting that a theoretical God “needs” to test people? He does it because it’s good to ensure people earn their rewards.
Please explain how you earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering.
“Suffering on earth is nothing” routine? I must have missed it, was that before or after your “I build strawmen” routine?
You said “Abrahamic God”. And regardless, the fact is I started in this world. My memories, and thus my self start here.
Wrong, an omnipotent god could create everything perfect, by definition.
Which make him a liar assuming he was real.
You do defending when you say the universe was created by an omniscient omnipotent god.
Of course he breaks promises; his mythic history is of a sadistic, erratic, untrustworthy sadistic megalomaniac. I’d sooner trust Hitler.
It’s bad enough in some cases to drive people insane. That’s plenty ad enough; and as pointed out again and again even the smallest amount of suffering in inconsistent with omnibenevolence.
And your handwaving away of “Earthly suffering” as unimportant is exactly the attitude that can and has justified any atrocity. It’s the philosophy of someone who could rape children and murder children, and dismiss their suffering and deaths with a shrug.
You are ignoring the point that by your own “logic” all suffering should just be ignored, including that of Hell.
Hardly irrelevant; it points out the fundamental falsehood of your position. Pain is just as painful regardless of the future.
Why should anyone earn anything like that ? You are describing a god who puts people though a sadistic charade. The only good, deserving people in your scenario would be those who rejected your monster-god completely.
But not according to Islam. This conversation started when I challenged Mijin to provide a Islamic-based defence. You may as well drop in to a poker game, start losing, but then start arguing with everyone that you were playing blackjack.
Who is arguing he couldn’t?
Please give an example.
I can’t reconcile it. There’s a difference between that, and believing it. We don’t understand all the whys of quantum physics, but we observe enough to believe it.
The Islamic God? Example please.
Please explain how you earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering.
Who was dismissing it with a shrug, other than your strawman? Every person who has ever suffered to any extent on earth will see an end to their suffering here on earth. Period. They will then be resurrected, and any “mental scarring” of that suffering will be removed. Then what will your argument be?
Uhm, I’m definitely not arguing that the suffering of hell should be ignored.
No one is arguing it, other than your strawman.
Please explain how you earn the ultimate reward in a world of no suffering.
