So, although I might feel strongly that The Invisible Hand is flipping us all off, I can’t prove it?
Can you? I’m sure a fine fellow such as you have always shown yourself to be would never consider withholding the benefits obtained by your eagle-eyed attention to detail and commitment to rational, fact-based discourse.
This is an interesting case. I don’t think you can claim that “not paying someone MW” = “slavery”. They may, and I emphasize may, be in violation of MW laws, but I doubt they will be found in violation of the 13th amendment.
So you’re saying that they are free to not accept the terms of their employment? :dubious:
thank you
I’m saying I doubt that what we think of as normal labor laws apply in this instance. I could be wrong, but has anyone successfully prosecuted a 13th amendment violation for something similar? If so, I’ll stand corrected.
I think we should also look at the contact these places have with ICE to see if anything like this is covered. I don’t know if it is, but it wouldn’t at all surprise me if it was.
You CAN say that “not paying someone MW” = “involuntary servitude”. This seems to be the very definition of it. They are ordered to work, and punished if they refuse.
Sure, but “not paying someone minimum wage” combined with “throwing them into solitary confinement and taking away visitation rights” gets a lot closer, no?
Assuming that the latter claim is true.
It’s unclear if anyone has actually been put in solitary confinement. Your quote says there was a threat of solitary confinement. But again, I think it will depend on the terms of the contact these detention centers have with ICE. It might be that ICE is in the wrong, if they included that option in the contract.
There’s a lot of room for confusion on that issue. Some ICE detainment facilities are located inside regular prisons and are operated by prison employees.
They were quite open about this when I worked in prisons. Yes, what prisoners were doing was involuntary servitude. But it was legal because they had been sentenced as punishment for crimes. A prisoner cannot refuse to work when he’s ordered to do so.
As others have noted, this may not apply to people being held in a prison as detainees.
Maybe you should try Learned Hand.
sigh once more, with feeling : the whole Invisible Hand theory hinged on the pre-requisite, yet naively hopeful notion that all actors will be rational and, above all, MORAL. Which might even have not been all that naive in Adam Smith’s time, when reputation was paramount. In these days of who gives a fuck, the Hand needs a leash and 20 lashes a day till it learns to behave.
Whether it’s the detention center or ICE that’s in the wrong is all about the contract.
But if there’s no “crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted” that they’re in detention on account of, and they’re being forced to work anyway, then somebody’s violating the 13th Amendment here.
Also, I can’t see if it matters whether “the party” has actually been punished for refusing to work, or has merely been informed that a refusal to work will have negative repercussions visited upon him. Involuntary servitude under the threat of punishment, and refusal to serve resulting in punishment, are two sides of the same coin. Maybe it’s an empty threat, but how does the prisoner know that?
In Shodan’s world, accused and detained = convicted. Just as long as it’s not he who stands accused and detained.
Does that matter?
Let’s say I offer to employ somebody for no money, and tell them I’ll lock them up if they don’t agree. But they believe me, so I don’t ever lock them up. Not slavery?
Does that matter?
Let’s say the same above situation, but now I have a piece of paper written by a third party that says I’m allowed to force the person to work without pay? Not slavery?
I don’t think that the pay, or lack thereof, enters into the question of involuntary servitude at all. I mean, I’ve worked for people without pay plenty of times, and there are many organizations that couldn’t exist without people working without pay, and nobody has any problem with that. The problem isn’t that the servitude is unpaid; it’s that it’s involuntary. It’s right there in the term “involuntary servitude”. And the work described here is pretty clearly involuntary.
Let the free market prevail; the prisoners can vote with their shivs.
To be fair, there are quite a lot of lawsuits filed alleging improper or abusive treatment by prisons, jails and other detention facilities. Most have no merit; prisoners are generally not the most credible witnesses. This one may, but I prefer to reserve my outrage until there’s at least some evidence in.
I don’t know if that’s really true. You can be forced to be a soldier, and quite possibly die, and that’s apparently A-OK with the 13th considering how many young men were drafted. How is a detention center more of a violation of one’s ability to choose than the draft?