We used to have a sportscaster here who used that phrase when a situation like this came up.
The offense is inside the 10-yard line but needs fewer than 10 yards to get a first down (e.g., third and five on the 8 yard line.) On one continuous play, it scores. The sportscaster would say, “It’s a first down and a touchdown.”
But is it technically? Does that play go into the stats as a first down added to all the other first downs the team made on that drive?
Or was the sportscaster simply using it to mean “They needed a first down, and got even more. It’s a touchdown”?
I’m talking about the NFL here, but would it make a difference if it were college or high school?
I’m pretty sure it doesn’t count as a first down because the first down never gets played.
Think of it like a play where it’s 3rd and long with seconds left in the first half. The QB gets the snap, goes for a long toss, and the receiver catches it but is tackled. The catch is made beyond the first down marker but since time has expired no first down is played. It wouldn’t count then either, you were basically in a situation where anything less than a score is of no help and you didn’t score.
The first down depends on where the ball is placed on the field after the play, in a touchdown there is no placement and the forward procession is stopped and the field positions repositioned, thus I don’t believe it is accurate, the next play is not even within that distance.
Well as this is the Straight Dope, perhaps we should accept the answer from the NFL Guide for Statisticians pages 7 and 8
First downs are compiled only from plays originating from the line of scrimmage. A first down shall be credited on each touchdown resulting from rushes or forward passes, regardless of the distance covered.
and
On the last play of the second or fourth quarter, or of an overtime period, if, in the scorer’s judgment, offensive team advances the ball to a first down, credit should be given whether or not the officials so signify.
Now that is interesting, but illogical. I mean, the whole point of making a first down is you get a new set of downs. If you score a TD, you don’t get a new set of downs. You get points.
It’s like if baseball scored a home run as a single, double, triple AND home run.
Thank you to OldGuy for looking up the factually correct answer.
Statistically I would agree it makes very little sense to count a touchdown as a first down *if there is no intervening first down line. * If there is - if for instance it’s first and 10 on the 15, and you score a touchdown ona single 15-yard gain, I can kind of understand crediting the offense with a first down, simply to try to accurately count the offenses’s skill at ball advancement. If you think about it, suppose you have two scenarios; Team B has first and 10 at the 15, runs an 11-yard play, and then scored on the subsequent down. Team B is in the same position and scores on one play. There is a logic in crediting Team B with achieving a first down just so it does not appear in the stats that Team A accomplished something Team B did not.
Even then, though, I could see the logic in not counting it. Barkis’s analogy to a home run being counted as a single, double and triple is an apt one. (Baseball has other scoring weirdnesses to worry about.)
Assigning a first down to a first-and-goal from the 2 yard line, though, makes no sense to me at all.
Well, really, a home run should be credited as a single, double, triple, and home run. If you had a guy that got a homer every at-bat, it wouldn’t really be fair to criticize him as “never hitting singles”.
On the other hand, if you’re at first and goal on the 3, and you make a seven-yard pass, well, you haven’t advanced the ball 10 yards.
On the gripping hand, though, if it were first and ten and you made a seven-yard pass, even though you didn’t get the first down on that play, it’s a decent chance that you would have on one of the subsequent plays. But a touchdown means that you never even play those subsequent plays, so you can’t get credit for that. It also doesn’t seem fair to deny credit for a first down because you stopped having a need to try for one.
Babe Ruth is 203rd all time in career singles, behind such luminaries as Al Dark, Placido Polanco, and Herman Long. I don’t hear him criticized much for that.
I think the weird thing about it is that it seems to miss the point of what a “down” is. It seems to me that a “down” is thought of as a play run from scrimmage, not as the old act of placing the ball on the ground at the end of a play (as remains in the name “touchdown”, literally, the act of touching the ball to the ground within the goal area). So you may have earned a new set of downs by getting past the line of gain in the case of a game ending before the down can be played. But you didn’t actually play that down. And given that your next move after a touchdown (not including the try) is a kickoff, the official scoring gives you an earned first down you don’t even play.
Props to the sportscaster for knowing the rule, though!
Is “first downs” really even looked at as a stat? It’s not really that useful because you could have a 99 yard pass play go for a touchdown, and you’re only going to be credited with one first down.
I suppose that the statistic that would actually be useful is what proportion of your plays end in a first down (or a touchdown). If, your first time on the field, you threw that 99-yard pass, then your first-down percentage would be 100%. Which would still understate the impact of that play, but it’d at least be fairly impressive.
My semi-related question would be: it is 2nd&8, when the QB throws a pick; the safety runs back about six yards with it, where the right guard delivers a hit that knocks the ball loose and a running back falls on it around the original line of scrimmage. There have been two changes of possession; a change of possession results in a first down. So is it now 3rd & 8 or first and ten?
First and 10. Once another side has full control of the ball, they have possession. Change of possession results in a first down for the team that has possession, regardless of how many times in one play that possession changes.
Yep. NCAA scoring rules assign a first down on a touchdown only when the original line of scrimmage was outside the 10-yard-line.
I like the NFL way better. Every series of downs has a line to gain–either 10 yards distant (first-and-10), or the goal line (first-and-goal). If you attain the line to gain, you had a successful series of downs. You’ve earned a statistical first down.