It's just a stupid flag!

The BBQ Pit
21

I’m not an expert on the Amish.

But I’m given to understand that the wearing of somber colors is not a matter of specific religious legislation with them - it’s more a matter of custom.

If a Amish man were to begin wearing bright orange polka-dots, he would be sending a message, at least symbolically, to the rest of the Amish community. He would be indicating that he considers himself separate from them, at least insofar as fashion choices go. He may well be an observant, pious member of the community, but he is carving his own path, and advertising it.

In high school, before games, our coach told all of us on the team to wear ties. There was no reason to do it, and I doubt anyone would have lost a starting job if he didn’t… but wearing the tie on game day was a way of expressing our solidarity with our teammates.

In my view, the flag-waving that’s happening now has many reasons - not the least of which is the desire of people all over the country to symbolize their solidarity and support of the victims of last Tuesday’s horror.

Of course the failure to fly a flag doesn’t mean the person who isn’t doing so is any less patriotic, or any less disgusted by Tuesday’s events. You don’t have to have, or wave, a flag to show that. You merely have to have a human heart.

Yes, Lao Tzu, the flag is merely a symbol. But right now, it’s a very powerful and visible symbol, one that immediately announces to the world your support and kinship with the bereaved. As such, I think it’s a valuable symbol.

Of course, the very freedom it symbolizes means you’re welcome to disregard it.

  • Rick
22

Hey Lao, you’re a booger.

23

Lao Tzu wrote

Whatever. I don’t think you’re on my team.

Anyone wanting a good price on a flag can print this out: http://www.etown.edu/com/swazicj/USflag.jpg

24

Rilchiam wrote:

Whilst I’m pro-US (although with some caveats - I personally wouldn’t like to see what some have advocated happen - essentially a blanket bombing of most of Afghanistan), I think that while the tone of the article might give offense, there may yet be points of merit in it.

He points out, for instance that:

  • the infrastructure of a modern capitalist state is essentially unguarded, and unguardable.

  • that borders cannot be sealed.

  • that with every year that passes, every thousandth link-up to the Internet, every millionth new mobile phone, it becomes less necessary for conspirators to meet physically in one place in order to conspire. The day is coming, perhaps has already come, when terrorists will not need to gather in camps.

I’ve probably over-quoted here, so I won’t go on, but as a hopefully level-headed Brit, I’d say that to dismiss the entire piece because he might not appear to be on-board (or on-message, as New Labour would say) might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

25

First (and probably only) let me commend you on your use of “jingoism”: A word, that to the best of my reading, hasn’t been used (in common vernacular) since about 1880. I understand it’s now under a revival.

I understood the use of that word in that context; how many rushed out to “buy” flags to fly them to show their “true colors” while the person selling you the very symbol ripped you off? The “principal” is not love of country or patriotism… the warlike policy is but money… they boast their patriotism but war is hell… and they will make you pay. War is dollar signs to them.

Not that I denigrate the flying of our flag: I don’t. I support it. I have my grandmother’s flag, almost 80 years old, and I am damn proud to fly it. It is old and has a few stains but on the whole it is ready, able and full of the very patriotism I hold: two men I know died for it, a third lived to tell his tale (my father) but no one held me hostage to a price to fly it. I’m blessed in that I have a treasure, a hand-me-down to thrust out into the darkness. I am proud to fly it, proud to stand behind it. Given my feeling now? I would gladly pay 5K for the honor to fly a flag that has stood over so many households in my family… hell, I’d give all I have for it at the moment…

A week ago good sized flags were 20 dollars… now, suddenly, they are 75… capitalism at it’s finest, isn’t it? But doesn’t this speak to something deeper? As any thinking person can grasp, there is a level, a place, and face it, America, you are not “people” anymore. You are “consumers” and the mega-corporations are scared shitless that you will stop doing what you are supposed to do:

CONSUME

You are not even people. You are consumers. If you doubt this go back over the last week and recall how many times “they” (the media) referred to you thus. They may have occasionally inserted “American” but more often than not they called you “consumer”.

And if you stop, we die. How many have heard this message? Consume or die. It’s like a Professor; publish or perish. You ARE what you consume. Don’t let America down. Buy, buy, and buy some more. Wether you need it or not… just fucking BUY damn you! And all will be right with our world.

Did you know that our GNP goes up when one of us gets cancer? Did you know that our GNP goes up when there is a massive oil spill? Did you know, that natural disasters, across the US, including the World Trade Center disaster, will cause our GNP to rise? We count horror as a “plus”. And what about this horror?

Why did these people do this? No one wants to analyze that. WHY?! Sure, the easy answer is they hate us. They hate US. But why? What did we do to these people to invoke so much hate? Surely, this doesn’t come from the very air; there is a reason why… I just wonder WHY not one single one of our leaders will address WHY… I fear because they do indeed know… and they can’t bear to tell us…

I honestly do want us, US, to band together… I think we need that now, but damn it, call me a shit, but I want the reasons why… I want to know why… they didn’t just do this to hurt or terrify us… they wanted something… WHAT!!!

Rysdad – let it fly! Flags, like yours, are flags with history… be proud of that history! Talk about it, tell stories about it… share your history with others… it MAKES a difference. People fought and died for that flag… it deserves to be honored.

phouka – Hey hon, we are pals (last time I checked) and I’m not getting that. I’m getting this is a person who’s damn pissed about the monetary value placed on the flag, not the symbol the flag itself has… dunno, maybe it’s just me… And hon, that’s what my flag means to me… It isn’t about ME, or my US, it’s about those I know who DIED for it… the flag I fly had lives behind it… it really means something to me… because I know the cost.

Tretiak – I can’t think of a better use for the money.

Jack Batty – no problem. No one is asking you to or forcing you to. Perhaps you might want to take that big red/white/blue pole out of your butt… :slight_smile:

grendel72 – I am frankly unaware of anyone here jumping your shit… don’t jump your own… do what is okay for YOU. Wearing of ribbons is something of a pissoff thing with me… pink for breast cancer, red for aids and blue for!!! Fuck that shit! Don’t wear a fucking thing unless you get it and get behind it… do what YOU need to. Give a few dollars, wear a ribbon, don’t, give a shit or not… don’t get into this shit that you have to do what “they” do. Just do what you can, what you are comfortable with… that’s enough. That’s you. No one has the right to call you “bad” unless you let them.

Waverly – it’s all about how YOU feel.

Rilchiam – I too enjoyed Tony Blair… but how real is he? Not very I fear, when the shit hits the wire… he is eloquent, powerful, strong… but he lost only 500… we lost 10 to 20 times that… he is key to a point… I fear his words, his body is key only till we ask more lives from him…

Bill H. – I’m surprised you are so cold. I really didn’t expect that from you but… in this… we must all make our plays. I hope you are okay with where you are.

I obviously have my own passions and power plays… I am who I am… I cannot be different… my flag has so much meaning for me… I will not, can not detract from others, you too must be who you are, do what you are… just, in this, in this most powerful moment, be strong… be true… be yourself and trust in the voice inside you.

My very best,
love and care,
heart and soul,
aware,
Byzantine

26

Nearly a 1,100 word dissertation and you only spend 7 of them on me? I’m hurt. If your fingers aren’t to cramped, maybe you could elaborate on what it was I said that you didn’t like.

27

Waverly – for some pathetic reason you need more than 7 words… fine… I said, “It’s all about you” not in any slam (as you so obviously took it) but in kudos to you. It’s all about how the receiver takes it… you just couldn’t take it in the best heart… I’m not surprised.

It seems every time I try to give out my heart someone takes it all wrong… they take every little word, pick it apart, and make my whole voice a slam. I don’t, for the very life of me, know why… I wanted to say to you, in the most plain language:

“All you feel, all you are, is you. No one can make you more than you are. It’s all about you. YOU are the center of your own heart… you must call upon yourself, do what you can… it’s all about you.”

Sadly, like most, you take the fact that I push life on you as some kind of slam. How sad. It was not, was never, meant this way. I dearly want all to stand up, for themselves, take responsibility, and do all they can. Pity you took it as a slam. It was never meant that way.

My best,
Byz

28

Byz: Easy, no harm done. Hopefully you can look back and see that why it’s possible to take, “It’s all about how YOU feel,” with no other explanation to be an accusation of some sort of self-centeredness on my part. Now that you have elaborated, I understand what you meant. Thank you.

29

Okay, in this I am glad. I guess I can see how my words might be misconstrued… In all of us, it is all about “you” as an individual… no one can say, no one can judge… it really is about “you” and how you feel. Thank you, Waverly, for getting that. No hurt, no harm, no foul… just… hell… Acceptance? No one, not me or anyone else can “tell” you what your own experience is… it’s singular but encompassing…

30

Byzantine wrote

Well let’s look at what Lao Tzu said.
He insisted that he wouldn’t fly a US flag because

He said that “flag waving never fails to perpetuate […] the same attitude that created enemies for us in the first place.”

Then he claimed “Just because i’m not waving a banner doesn’t mean i’m not on your team.”

My response was simple: his claim of being one of the team doesn’t stand with his statements.

Now, as to your statement:

I hope you’re not serious. I sincerely hope that you don’t insist that we psychoanalyze a criminal before we begin to arrest and prosecute him. Why did John Wayne Gacy do what he did? An interesting topic for some thesis somewhere, but irrelevant for the operation of society. The issue of the day is removing the immediate threat (prosecution of the current criminals) and removing potential future threat (securing ourselves against future attacks).

In the case of states, such as Israel and Palestine, their intents and needs are important to understand to bring peace to their region. But we aren’t talking about states here. We’re talking about criminal activity. We’re talking about actions which are abhorrent to any society.

31

Actually they are. When I walk down the hall at my workplace I have to look at the flags and ribbons people have put up, and feel offended by that. They smack of “us and them”, solidarity in violent actions toward an enemy, etc. So I asked to put up my response (my reaction to the situation), which would be a Bible verse, and I was told that was inappropriate. I completely understand that, as everyone around me doesn’t share that belief, but I am also being forced to see something I don’t like either. I know, I should just suck it up, but there it is.

32

You know it’s weird. About a year ago, I considered painting a huge US flag on my car. The reason I decided not to is that I knew it would be criticized as geeky, so I just put a tiny flag sticker in my back window (incidentally, this is not legal as it obstructs your view). But I would have been proud to show that there is still someone who “gets it.” Old guys love it when a younger guy shows love for his country and admiration for the veterans. Now, however, I’d just be jumping on the bandwagon. I don’t feel I need to “change” my routine. I’m still as patriotic as I ever was, so why should I make a behavioral change? I don’t want to be one who becomes an “instant patriot,” just add tears and the flag appears! This recent run to the stores begs the question: Since all the flags in the store have been sold, will those flags still be on display in a month, a year…five years?

Maybe people will finally understand why I liked “The Patriot” and “Independence Day.”

33

wow, is byzantine a piece of work or what?

34

Just beware of theives. There is a shop owner here that displayed the flag that was draped on his WWII veteran grandfather’s casket and it was stolen. He was on the news asking for it to be brought back. I hope yours doesn’t meet with the same fate.

35

from Bill H:

Thanks anyway, Bill.

Lisa, adding “color printer” to my Xmas Wish List

36

A small rant from an old girl scout. Fly the flag or not. It’s your choice. This is America. We have a choice. But try and follow the protocol. If it touches the ground, or brushes against a building, you’re supposed to burn it. Don’t stick it on the side of the house like a blanket. Don’t leave it out in the rain. It belongs on a pole. If it gets ripped or ragged, take it down and get a new flag. Take it down at night and fold it. It isn’t supposed to be displayed 24/7 unless it’s lit.

I don’t fly a flag, not because I’m not patriotic, but because I’m too damn lazy to take care of it, and I respect it too much for that. Everyone is eager to be a patriot right now, but it bothers me to see the American flag treated like any other yard ornament.

37

Hell, Bill H., I guess you got me there. Do I dispute the claims made by Lao Tzu? No, I don’t. I have many misgivings over our avid consumerism… and, frankly, for the most part, in the last 50 years, our flag HAS stood for “oil-motivated wars, corporate-run politics, and human rights violations, both here and abroad”

That IS true, whether you or anyone else want’s to admit to it: That IS what the US has been about in the last 50 years!

As to what the current flag waving phenomenon is about? I’ll leave that up to the historians… as to what I think it’s about? Well, let me tell you: I think it’s about people, average every day people, doing the smallest bit they can to show that they support the entire BEING of the US. Do I think this is wrong or silly? No. I find this grand, wondrous… It is amazing to me that a land so polarized (after the last election, and you KNOW how close that was) coming together under a man that did NOT win the popular vote! Really, this, in and of itself, is amazing!

To me, this is staggering. I am amazed, astounded and several other words that I can’t draw to my fingertips. How, after such a 50/50 everyone got behind GWB, wholeheartedly, without reservation, is mind-blowing! I still, personally, think he’s a fucking moron, but damn, I’ll give him this: he’s got one hell of a good speech writer and he’s done a hell of a lot to improve himself as a public speaker… but he still sucks next to the Mayor of NY! :slight_smile:

As to the idea that we should “psychoanalyze” the jackanapes that perpetuated this horror: I don’t recall saying that we should. I just wondered at their reasons, their minds. Analyze them? Surely, we should… We cannot understand them unless we really LOOK at them. We can not thwart them unless we understand them… and you, yourself, fling up John Wayne Gacy… I find that odd and true: NO ONE understood him, until someone got into his head… one escaped. One lone boy escaped and lead all back to the horror of his home… almost thirty bodies buried…

And in that I hold you sway: One boy got away. There was one left alive to lead all others back. It isn’t just about those who died… it’s about that ONE that leads back…

But to you, you say it isn’t about the boys who died, it’s about, “removing the immediate threat (prosecution of the current criminals) and removing potential future threat (securing ourselves against future attacks).”

In this I find your analogy (of John Wayne Gacy) almost silly. He was accorded the most plush, the most full scope, of our criminal justice system. Really, you should, could, have picked almost anyone else. He was treated like a fucking KING compared to what is commonly done to others, in other countries… anyway, he’s a shit… and ultimately, he was brought down. Not by careful, thoughtful discourse… he was brought down by the number of bodies (28?) Buried under his home. It wasn’t thoughtful discourse, it was hard cold facts that brought his sick, fucking ass to justice!

We will not “catch” these folks so “red handed”. I still don’t, for the life of me, understand why you compared the “terrorists” to “JWG”… perhaps I’ve missed something. I’m sure, if I have, you will let me know.

38

I think people who try to make money from a terrible tragedy are despicable, whether they do it by raising the price of a flag or in any other way. The current flag-obsession does seem a bit silly to me, but I understand that it is only an expression of sympathy and solidarity. I find certain things vaguely offensive - like a list of “Flag Etiquette” I read in an American newspaper which mentioned that the American flag should always be higher than any other flag displayed alongside it - but I don’t blame people for reacting to a horrifying incident in this harmless way.

But I’ve got to agree with those who say that all this flag-waving promotes an attitude of “us versus them”. This isn’t really an accurate attitude to have, but I can understand it in the face of such terrible tragedy. I only worry that it could become accurate. Here in Europe I’ve heard a lot of people saying that America “had it coming”. I think that if people realised that this was an attack on the World Trade Centre and that citizens of fifty different countries died, this would help them to see that “America” did not deserve this, as the Americans who died were as innocent as all those others who died alongside them.

39

In free and democratic societies such as the UK and the US, people are at liberty to express their opinions, as dissident, unorthodox, controversial, or uncommon as they are.

In free and democratic societies such as the UK and the US, people will exercise that liberty, and have exercised it, even in respect of the events of September 11th and their aftermath.

In free and democratic societies such as the UK and the US, people have expressed dissident, unorthodox, controversial, or uncommon views. How do the views of Matthew Parris make one dog’s fart of difference to the positions or actions taken by the government or PM of the UK? Does the presence of dissident, unorthodox, controversial, or uncommon views being expressed within the United States itself make George Bush a traitor to his own country? Do the expression of such views within the US - and they have been expressed - make the US a traitor to itself? How many Americans have you cordially invited to kiss your ass, or any other part of your anatomy?

Welcome to the free and democratic world; we hope you enjoy your stay in the area, and wherever else your travels may take you.

40

*Originally posted by Rysdad *
**

It’s nice to hear it from you, Rysdad, but unfortunately the rest of the non-US free world has yet to hear it from the US government.

I want the Canadian and other governments to fully cooperate with the US on this one, but it has to be mutual. There were a whole lot of terrorist and terrorist-front bank accounts frozen the other day, but I didn’t see the IRA, Ulster paramilitaries, Tamil Tigers, ETA, Corsican separatist bombers, or those responsible for Air India among the list.

To bring this back in line with the thread, any scum caught stealing a flag ought to have one tattooed - large - across their asses, so they’ll never be without one again. Ideally with really large-bore needles.