It's official: Obama isn't taking the ebola threat seriously.

[astorian]

Unlike a lot of conservatives, I am NOT particularly worried about Ebola exploding in the USA. In fact, IF President Obama had announced “Contrary to widespread fears, Ebola is well contained, and there is absolutely NO need for an Ebola czar,” I could have respected that.

Instead, Obama did the worst possible thing: he acknowledgeed that the problem was serious enough to require a czar, and then appointed Harriet Miers… er, Ron Klain, to handle it.

Up front: I am not a doctor. I am not a virologist,. I am not an epidemiologist. I offer NO opinions about handling Ebola, because I’m not ENTITLED to an opinion. I’m completely unqualified to offer any opinions!

Like most Americans, I would LIKE to leave everything to the experts. I would LIKE to believe that the CDC is run by the smartest of the smartest doctors, and trust them to do their jobs. In the same way, I would LIKE to believe that FEMA is run by capable people who are well prepared to respond to any natural disaster.

Unfortunately, Ron Klain looks a lot like Mike “Heckuva job, Brownie” Brown to me.

I KNOW that many on the RIght are trying to use Ebola as a weapon against President Obama, and that’s probably why many people on the Left are inclined to circle the wagons, defend the President, and yell, “Remain calm, all is well.”

But my concern is NOT that Obama personally is mismanaging this crisis. My concern goes deeper than that. My concern is that agencies which SHOULD be run by smart, capable professionals who are experts in their fields are, in fact, being run by party hacks who DON’T know what they’re doing. That was true in Dubya’s administration, and it’s true now. Maybe it’s ALWAYS been true.

But isn’t this the KIND of issue we should all be in agreement on? Can’t we ALL agree that it’s scary when agencies dedicated to handling dangerous situations seem incompetent, make big mistakes, and then engage in a lot of blatant ass-covering?

[GrandWino]

Guys, don’t bother arguing with **Magiver **about realistic logistics - he’s the one that though we should be able to have basically dropped the A-Team into Benghazi with guns blazing.

[Magiver]

@Broomstick

It doesn’t.

However, to the best of anyone’s knowledge an infected person isn’t contagious until they show symptoms. Pre-symptoms it’s safe to be around the person.

So far we’ve had 3 people in the medical field catch the disease and then walk around with it. You don’t seem to grasp the significance of this. 3 trained medical people wearing protective gear.

Apply this to the average person who comes into the country not showing symptoms and then interacts with people. This is exactly how aids spread. And just like aids we were told you couldn’t get it unless you came in contact with bodily fluids. 1.7 million people dead because it’s impossible to control human behavior.

It would be nice if everybody who gets passed the screening process has a medical degree. The likelihood of that is extremely low.

[Steophan]

@Magiver

And just like aids we were told you couldn’t get it unless you came in contact with bodily fluids.

Er, you can’t get AIDS unless you come into contact with bodily fluids…

[septimus]

@Magiver

… interacts with people. This is exactly how aids spread.

“interacts”? Is that the new euphemism?

[septimus]

@astorian

Unfortunately, Ron Klain looks a lot like Mike “Heckuva job, Brownie” Brown to me.

[QUOTE=Wikipedia]
[Ronald A. Klain] was on [his high-]school’s [winning] Brain Game team … graduated summa cum laude from Georgetown University … graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law School … [was] a law clerk for Supreme Court Justice Byron White … Chief Counsel to the U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary … Staff Director of the Senate Democratic Leadership Committee … Chief of Staff to two Vice presidents
…
…
[Michael DeWayne Brown was] assistant to the city manager of Edmond, Oklahoma … His White House biography stated that he had emergency services oversight in this position. However, the head of public relations for the city was quoted as denying that Brown had oversight over anybody and that “the assistant is more like an intern.”
… Jones then described him as “not serious and somewhat shallow.” Of the 37 lawyers with Jones’ law firm, Brown was one of two staffers who was let go when the firm split. [He was] Judges and Stewards Commissioner for the International Arabian Horse Association, (IAHA), from 1989-2001. After numerous lawsuits were filed … Brown resigned and negotiated a buy-out of his contract.
… Brown currently hosts a radio talk show on 630 KHOW in Denver, Colorado.
[/QUOTE]

Unlike a lot of conservatives, I …

Oh. Nevermind.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@astorian

Obama did the worst possible thing: he acknowledgeed that the problem was serious enough to require a czar, and then appointed Harriet Miers… er, Ron Klain, to handle it.

But my concern is NOT that Obama personally is mismanaging this crisis. My concern goes deeper than that. My concern is that agencies which SHOULD be run by smart, capable professionals who are experts in their fields are, in fact, being run by party hacks who DON’T know what they’re doing. That was true in Dubya’s administration, and it’s true now.

I stand by what I said before: if Obama had instead picked a medical professional of the expert-in-his-field variety, then – so what? That guy still answers to Obama. Not too long ago, the medical professional would’ve answered to Dubya.

So since Dubya or Obama or whoever is going to call the shots without having a medical degree, who cares whether it’s Dubya or Obama or Klain?

Obama could’ve bossed around medical professionals, delegating and managing and so on; instead, Obama hired a guy to – boss around medical professionals, delegating and managing and so on. How is the latter more objectionable than the former?

[Broomstick]

@Magiver

So far we’ve had 3 people in the medical field catch the disease and then walk around with it. You don’t seem to grasp the significance of this. 3 trained medical people wearing protective gear.

OK, we’re going to try this one more time

The most dangerous time to “interact” with an Ebola patient is when they’re near death or just after and overflowing with virus. Medical people interact with such patients during such times. Yes, they wear protective gear - which must be used perfectly every single time. That means no accidental rips or tears, no accidental needle-sticks (which happen to the most skilled doctors and nurses from time to time no matter how cautious), and absolute perfection in removing the gear. Absolute perfection - which we know doesn’t exist. So yes, it should be expected that from time to time a doctor or nurse will come down with it no matter how stringent our efforts at protecting them. You are ignoring that in the vast majority of cases of medical personnel in the west treating Ebola the person did NOT get sick.

Also - you are NOT contagious with Ebola until you show symptoms. This should be VERY clear by now. In fact, Thomas Duncan’s fiancee and her family lived in close proximity to him for DAYS even after symptoms started and not one of them became sick. This, despite NO protective gear and NO training. They’ve passed their quarantine without so much as a sniffle. How do you account for that, unless, as you have been repeatedly told, it’s NOT that easy a disease to catch, you aren’t contagious until symptoms arrive, and it’s not until the patient is spewing fluids and near death that risk of infection becomes truly significant?

Apply this to the average person who comes into the country not showing symptoms and then interacts with people.

Unless a person with Ebola has symptoms THEY ARE NOT CONTAGIOUS.

And just like aids we were told you couldn’t get it unless you came in contact with bodily fluids.

You can’t get HIV unless you’re in contact with bodily fluids. Do you doubt this for some reason?

Part of the problem with HIV is that you can be symptom free and still spread it - that is NOT the case with Ebola.

[Ramira]

@Magiver

Cite the nurses were mopping up puke, shit, piss and blood.

It is necessary to highlight this as one of the most absurd requests for cites I have read on this board.

The known version of ebola has shown to be transmittable via aerosol among monkeys.

But since you are confusing another disease with the Ebola, it is not surprising.

@Magiver

medical supplies and personnel don’t travel commercial air.

Of course they do, it is the most frequent method. Why do you make false claims?

The logistics of it is that it’s extremely expensive to pull a wide body plane out of service and thoroughly clean it. All the passengers have to be tracked down and monitored. Again, very expensive.

If any such persons are not symptomatic, this is only theater to calm the fearful and the very misinformed.

The Belgians and the Moroccans are managing air service perfectly well right now.

@even_sven

I work in the business, and yes, humanitarian workers do fly commercial, all the time. Charters are good for getting to places where commercial transport doesn’t exist, or for dispatching a small crisis team for an immediate response, but I can’t think of any cases where inter-continental charters between major airports ran for a sustained time period.

Yes, and the logistics from the major hubs is better.

@Magiver

There’s no reason not to fly commercial TO nearby countries.

Yes there is a reason, it adds greatly to the cost for no rational reason and the logistics for handling is more efficient at the major hubs.

Financially this is the cheapest route for reasons I already went over.

You make up non-existent facts and very clearly do not know African air travel.

@Magiver

So far we’ve had 3 people in the medical field catch the disease and then walk around with it. You don’t seem to grasp the significance of this. 3 trained medical people wearing protective gear.

It is already reported many times the Dallas nurses themselves said initial gear was not adequate or even fully present. Why do you avoid this confirmed fact again and again in favor of the fear mongering?

@Broomstick

OK, we’re going to try this one more time.

Thank you it is useful, although likely to have no effect…

It is useful again to highlight that the Senegalese and the Nigerians have stopped their outbreaks - due to the travel. It is hopeful that the Mali will do the same. The great problem was the three countries, but most specifically the Liberia not taking the disease seriously early on when it was in the common back-country shared between the three (where there is shared ethnicities across the borders and a shared distrust of the dominant cultures of the capitals). This became then run-away in that area, that has pumped like a heart the disease further.

[Broomstick]

@Ramira

Thank you it is useful, although likely to have no effect…

You’re welcome.

At this point it is not so much to convince the hopeless but rather those reading who might still be on the fence.

Some people are just determined to be afraid.

[bobot]

@Diceman

So today, President Obama announced he’s naming an “Ebola czar”. He’s a guy named Ron Klain. It was immediately noted that Klain has no medial background of any kind; he’s Joe Biden’s former chief of staff.

Way to phone it in, Barak. Couldn’t you find a former surgeon general, or at least a freakin doctor, to be your “Ebola Czar”?

It’s one thing to tell people not to panic, it’s another thing to put one’s giant cojones on display for the world to see. Here, Pres. Obama gives Nina Pham- recently cleared of ebola- a giant hug.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftime.com%2F3537430%2Fobama-hugs-nurse-ebola-survivor%2F&ei=I_lLVMmSGMOoyASCz4CYBg&bvm=bv.77880786,d.aWw&psig=AFQjCNEHcrHMGPAlbJgkiesxYS0I9EWKIQ&ust=1414351512068504

[astorian]

@septimus

Oh. Nevermind.

OHMYGOD! You caught me! I slipped up and admitted I’m a conservative ! NOW you have me by the balls, and you can safely dismiss everything I said, because I couldn’t POSSIBLY Have a point.

[septimus]

@astorian

OHMYGOD! You caught me! I slipped up and admitted I’m a conservative ! NOW you have me by the balls, and you can safely dismiss everything I said, because I couldn’t POSSIBLY Have a point.

Did you compare the two biography extracts I posted? Wikipedia might be biased, but can you fight my ignorance by finding on-line bios slanted the other way?

Based on the bios posted, your attempt to compare the two seemed [del]conservative[/del] bizarre. :rolleyes:

[septimus]

@astorian

OHMYGOD! You caught me! I slipped up and admitted I’m a conservative ! NOW you have me by the balls, and you can safely dismiss everything I said, because I couldn’t POSSIBLY Have a point.

Yes, I was snarky. In fact I’ve no great objection to “conservative” in its traditional meaning. But in context, it seemed that “conservative” meant “someone who thinks that an Obama appointee, no matter how competent, is no better than a GWB appointee, no matter how incompetent.” It’s a shame that our country and its “conservatives” have come to that … but your silence on the substance of my post, to focus only on the “joke,” does tend to confirm that my assumption was correct.

[Magiver]

@Broomstick

The most dangerous time to “interact” with an Ebola patient is when they’re near death or just after and overflowing with virus.

Again, it resides in sperm 7 weeks after the infection is considered over. That means it’s a concern at any time the person is not exhibiting symptoms.

It’s nothing but a sound bite to keep regurgitating the line it’s only infectious if they’re exhibiting symptoms of the disease. If a person’s temperature goes up at noon it doesn’t mean they weren’t infectious at 10am that day or the day before. You also don’t take into consideration that a person with Ebola can’t also have another medical problem like the flu. People go to work every day with colds so there is your method of transmission right there.

@Broomstick

Medical people interact with such patients during such times. Yes, they wear protective gear - which must be used perfectly every single time. That means no accidental rips or tears, no accidental needle-sticks (which happen to the most skilled doctors and nurses from time to time no matter how cautious), and absolute perfection in removing the gear. Absolute perfection - which we know doesn’t exist. So yes, it should be expected that from time to time a doctor or nurse will come down with it no matter how stringent our efforts at protecting them. You are ignoring that in the vast majority of cases of medical personnel in the west treating Ebola the person did NOT get sick.

you’re ignoring that the entire non-medical populace goes about their daily lives without wearing medical gear.

@Broomstick

Also - you are NOT contagious with Ebola until you show symptoms. This should be VERY clear by now. In fact, Thomas Duncan’s fiancee and her family lived in close proximity to him for DAYS even after symptoms started and not one of them became sick. This, despite NO protective gear and NO training. They’ve passed their quarantine without so much as a sniffle. How do you account for that, unless, as you have been repeatedly told, it’s NOT that easy a disease to catch, you aren’t contagious until symptoms arrive, and it’s not until the patient is spewing fluids and near death that risk of infection becomes truly significant?

color me surprised that people under medical observation don’t get the disease. You continually ignore the human factor. People lie about their health for a variety of reasons. People react differently to a disease so symptoms are not consistent on a timeline.

@Broomstick

Unless a person with Ebola has symptoms THEY ARE NOT CONTAGIOUS.

Bullshit. It’s in semen for 7 weeks after the disease is deemed conquered. That ignores the reality that as in any disease, there are people whose immune system fights it off without all the THEY ARE NOT CONTAGIOUS promises you keep swilling. That means there are people who get it, don’t show the signs you insist they will. Unlike Aids this develops rapidly . Like the flu, it can mutate and already has. This is the danger you hand wave away.

@Broomstick

You can’t get HIV unless you’re in contact with bodily fluids. Do you doubt this for some reason?

I’m completely thunderstruck by the stupidity of this statement. 1.7 million people died, most of them knowing the avenue of transmission of aids.

[Magiver]

@Broomstick

You’re welcome.

At this point it is not so much to convince the hopeless but rather those reading who might still be on the fence.

Some people are just determined to be afraid.

there is no fear of the disease at this point. The concern is that we don’t have a system in place to deal with it. Saying you can’t get it unless you sit next to Linda Blair on an airplane is a soundbite.

[Broomstick]

@Magiver

Again, it resides in sperm 7 weeks after the infection is considered over.

It’s in semen for 7 weeks after the disease is deemed conquered.

So, tell me, how often are you imbibing the sperm of people you meet on the subway, in the grocery store, at the bowling alley, etc?

Have you been walking around in public only to be suddenly and without warning sprayed some random man’s sperm?

Unless you are the current sexual partner of someone who has recently had Ebola that is not a concern.

But if you insist on going into a panic over this be my guest. Despite my proximity to Chicago, which is one of the more common ports of entry for people coming from Africa, I frankly am not worried about this. When we start seeing an exponential rise in cases in my area THEN I’ll worry… but I very much doubt that’s going to happen.

I’m completely thunderstruck by the stupidity of this statement. 1.7 million people died, most of them knowing the avenue of transmission of aids.

Yeah, people do dumb shit.

They have unprotected sex with total strangers. They shoot drugs with dirty needles. Or their mom had HIV when she was pregnant with them or they needed a blood transfusion or were raped by someone with AIDS… sometimes shit just happens, or is done to you against your will or in ignorance.

We don’t see much HIV transmission via blood anymore because we did something to stop that. We have drugs that greatly reduce the transmission from mother to fetus. Yay us. People still have unsafe sex and shoot drugs, though, so until that stops or we come up with a definitive vaccine or treatment yes, we’ll continue to see cases of HIV.

[Magiver]

@Broomstick

So, tell me, how often are you imbibing the sperm of people you meet on the subway, in the grocery store, at the bowling alley, etc?

Have you been walking around in public only to be suddenly and without warning sprayed some random man’s sperm?.

Are you seriously suggesting that’s how AIDS spread or that Ebola can’t be transmitted this way?

[Broomstick]

Sure, HIV is spread by sex, that’s not news.

Yes, Ebola could be spread that way, but unless you’re suggesting that we’re going to get hordes of promiscuous post-Ebola-infection people fucking their way across America I think you’re really off base here. Sexual intercourse isn’t a major mode of transmission of Ebola even where it’s actually out of control, what makes you think this will be a problem in the US?

[Magiver]

@Broomstick

Sure, HIV is spread by sex, that’s not news.

Yes, Ebola could be spread that way, but unless you’re suggesting that we’re going to get hordes of promiscuous post-Ebola-infection people fucking their way across America I think you’re really off base here. Sexual intercourse isn’t a major mode of transmission of Ebola even where it’s actually out of control, what makes you think this will be a problem in the US?

Well alleluia, 3 pages into the thread you admit it can spread this way.

We’re fortunate that the the disease is currently focused in a region of low travel. I’m not personally worried that I’ll get it just as I wasn’t worried I’d get AIDS. I’m not worried you’ll get it. I’m worried that it will transition to a region of mass-travel and it will spread globally. The more it spreads around the greater the risk a mutation will occur and spread. it’s not a small problem if this occurs.

I’ll repeat what I said in another thread. We currently screen for people not exhibiting systems. That does not stop people who are infected and do not show symptoms at the time of travel.

Now it’s human nature that determines transmission. Once it jumps from people KNOWN to have been in hot zones to people who randomly came in contact with them (unknowingly) then the screening process falls apart. People who come in with flu symptoms are sent home. This is EXACTLY what occurred with patient zero in the United States. It’s fortunate that he had a fiancee and was about to get married. It’s fortunate that he went back to the hospital where the next 2 people who caught it were medical personnel. He could have been a junkie exchanging needles or a john with a prostitute.