We’ve been studying Ebola for 38 years. If there was an unexpected mode of transmission, we would have noticed.
Which President do you support?
The one who doesn’t want people in quarantine.
The one who wants people in quarantine.
Which CDC do you support?
The one that says 99.6 is OK to travel.
The one that says it was a bad idea to travel.
Don’t ask me; I’m not a doctor.
I’m asking you: where, exactly, did you get your information? What is the basis for what you are saying? Be specific. Just asking, “How do we know it isn’t” is a very poor basis for knowledge. (How do I know you aren’t an enemy agent provocateur trying to raise the level of panic in the U.S.?)
No, I think that a person’s temperature won’t rise until there’s a certain amount of Ebolavirus in their body, and that person is only contagious when there’s that level or more of the virus in their body.
It’s not hiding, it literally doesn’t exist yet. Viruses breed in the human body, and until a certain amount of Ebolavirus has bred, the host is neither symptomatic nor contagious.
I think there’s a predictable pattern that Ebola infection follows, and that everyone reacts to infection within certain well-known bounds.
Cite for it rapidly infecting a population? It’s infected less than 15,000 people ever, and the current outbreak has infected maybe 10,000 people in 8 months or so, and is spreading at a predictable, slow, rate in Liberia and Sierra Leone of roughly 2 new infections per infected person, over 3 weeks. In countries where it’s being treated properly - such as Nigeria, Guinea, Mali, Spain, the US, the UK, any outbreaks have either been controlled, are clearly under control, or never happened in the first place due to good practice. The last is for the UK, where there’s been at least one person treated for the disease without anyone catching it.
But then, you seem to think HIV is easy to catch and spreads quickly, so you obviously don’t have any idea how viruses actually work.
No, “working up a sweat jogging” is NOT a fever. Yes, your temp goes up but it’s not in response to illness, it’s because your muscles are generating more heat than your skin can radiate quickly.
It is not until you actually get sick that you’re contagious, based on several decades of actual research by actual medical researcher, and study of outbreaks in the wild, and the fever is not a slight elevation such as you get from exercise it’s a rapidly rising fever that get dangerously high.
Please. This is extensive, sudden, and sever pain that didn’t exist a week or two before, not the gradual degradation of joints and muscles that occurs over decades.
As I said, he was truthful about where he had been.
And Duncan’s buddies back in Liberia have said that the pregnant woman he assisted was believed to be having problems related to her pregnancy and nobody know at that time that she had Ebola. So Duncan honestly didn’t know he’d been exposed.
Who do we believe? Duncan’s friends and relatives who might well be biased or a nurse in Dallas who is probably trying to cover her ass? Why should I believe Sidia Rose over Thomas Duncan? Or Thomas Duncan over Sidia Rose? I don’t know anything about either of those people except what’s been reported in the media which isn’t really that much at all.
Regardless of whether he knew or not he’d been exposed, regardless of what he said, an adult with a 103 fever (which is what he had) is deadly serious and they probably should have admitted him just for that - except of course he’s poor, uninsured, foreign, and dark skinned (pick one or several). I firmly believe that if someone with insurance had shown up with that symptom he would have been admitted but because we have a two-tier medical system in the country that treats people without insurance as disposable trash he was sent home.
But hey, keep blaming the dead guy, he can’t complain or defend himself.
Again, let’s blame the dead guy and cover our asses. On the one hand you say governments are lying about Ebola and can’t be trusted, then you turn around and say because a government says something it should be trusted. Why should I trust any party involved in this?
Maybe Duncan lied - but apparently there’s some question whether he did or not, and scared people looking for a scapegoat are conflating what he said at an airport with what he said at a hospital. As you continually do. Duncan was entirely truthful about where he had been recently when asked. That combined with a high fever should have made the hospital suspicious and investigate further whether or not he had a known contact.
If he had been brought in unconscious with a 103 degree fever and a recent history of being in Liberia they should have just shrugged and said well, we can’t ask him if he’s had contact with an Ebola patient so we should assume he hasn’t - or should they think well, maybe he did whether or not anyone knows about it.
You are making me quite angry. I did not say “men”, I said ADULTS. Or don’t you think women exist? ADULTS. Stop twisting what I say, it’s dishonest and really, anyone who cares to read this thread can go back and actually read the posts in question so I’m baffled why you think that’s an effective tactic or why you think you can get away with it.
No, actually, until someone is actually sick their sweat not contagious. Someone infected does not become instantly contagious, this is not World War Z. It shows up in semen AFTER someone has been sick, that is, shown symptoms. This is NOT the zombie apocalypse you are looking for.
He MIGHT have lied at the airport, that has never been proven and given he’s dead likely never will be one way or the other. He did NOT lie at the hospital when asked about his travel history, which is really the most important part of that whole exchange
He is not “the Duncan”. He was Thomas Duncan, a man, a human being. Stop dehumanizing him.
And you know what? Dr. Spencer was not sick and therefore was not contagious when he “traveled all over the place”. The nurse OK’d to travel by the CDC was not sick at the time she traveled. It is highly unlikely either of them infected anyone else by their actions. I know it’s hard for people to wrap their heads around this fact but Ebola patients are not contagious UNTIL they actually get sick. Yes, this is unlike some other infections where you can be infectious before you show symptoms but hey, those diseases aren’t Ebola.
Well, IF that happens then you treat anyone running a high fever as a potential Ebola case until a definitive test can be made or they progress to additional symptoms. Would that be inconvenient? Of course it would, widespread outbreaks and epidemics are like that. On the other hand, it might cut down on influenza which kills thousands or tens of thousands every year, unlike Ebola.
Yes, that is called freedom. Why are you afraid of freedom?
Here’s a newsflash for you: it’s pretty damn rare when an ill patient shows up in a doctor’s office and can definitely state when and where they acquired an infection. That’s usually discovered after the fact, if at all. Taking a medical history involves gathering as much information as possible because most typically people don’t know where they picked up an illness and yes, sometimes they lie.
Which is why I keep saying if the triage nurse and rest of the ER personnel had done their jobs properly “has recently been in Liberia” combined with high fever should have been a red flag regardless of what else might have been said.
That, combined with the inadequate gear and training given to the nurses who took care of Mr. Duncan makes me think that the hospital did not do as well as it should have in this matter.
You’ve got that a bit backward - rising body temperature doesn’t trigger the virus, a rising virus count triggers fever.
I don’t fully understand all the mechanisms involved because I’m not a medical doctor with expertise in this disease but reliable authorities (as opposed to the general media) have repeatedly stated that no one is contagious until they show actual symptoms of Ebola, of which high fever is just one and not the only one. It is possible, based on Mr. Duncan’s associates, that people aren’t even strongly contagious the first few days of high fever. There does seem to be a strong correlation between the intensity of symptoms and how contagious someone is.
Someone who is JUST showing the high fever and not yet experiencing other symptoms is not going to infect you merely by standing in the same room as you.
Part of what the nurse was complaining about wasn’t just being quarantined, it was being quarantined in a tent without proper clothing, without heat, and without proper and basic sanitation facilities which you aren’t allowed to do to convicted felons, much less innocent medical personnel.
As for the military - I don’t know enough about what those soldiers were doing in Africa, or the reasoning behind what’s being done. Yes, it does sound like quarantine by another name but frankly, the military is allowed to restrict access to its personnel for any number of reasons. It may be the commanders involved are erring on the side of caution but soldiers often live and work in close quarters and contagious disease among the troops is always a concern. That’s why soldiers get a bajillion vaccines when they sign up. The 1918 flu pandemic got its start in army barracks and was spread (inadvertently) by military personnel. It’s a different situation than in the civilian world and that soundbite you linked to just isn’t enough information to go on.
It’s actually pretty slow at spreading when compared to the common cold, flu, measles, chicken pox, and a lot of other disease that spread much more effectively and easily among people. Yes, it’s dangerous, but much of what’s happening is based on ignorance, fear, and panic and not actual medical knowledge.
I support The Commander in Chief, who took the oath of office.
I support the one who stayed in The White House even after military-trained terrorists started lone wolf attacks on it; not the one who landed his plane & hid when terrorists attacked.
I support the one that got Bin Laden, not the one who paid his hotel keepers trillions “to look for him” for almost 2 decades.
Quarantines, when medically appropriate are necessary. “No-Thought” quarantines are about as smart as minimum sentencing guidelines and mandatory jail sentences:
They’re just an easy fix for lazy minds with no concept or care about what it will take to make that happen in the future or what it will mean for the country.
Same. I’ll the the MDs determine and recommend while the Administrators administrate. Its not perfect, but its the best working healthcare system I’ve ever lived under.
While Magiver has been here long enough for me to know he isn’t that, his argument seems VERY “Swift Boat” in nature** and right before an election.** I’d be curious to know if he read it someplace (and if Rove wrote it).
Broomstick (and others who agree with him): what do you do when you have symptoms of illness?
I would guess that you immediately rush off to the doctor or emergency room.
Those of us who are not in the middle/upper class American way of life react quite differently: we self-medicate and/or suffer through it. We believe that most spells of sickness clear themselves up in a few days because of the self-healing properties of the human body. So we only go to the doctor or emergency room when the symptoms are quite strong or after a number of days of not getting better.
So I can see people easily spreading ebola even if they live in the U.S. or other advanced country.
At present, unless you’re in a handful of African countries, you will know if you’ve potentially been exposed to Ebola and if so, should immediately go to a hospital if you get any symptoms.
But even if you don’t, you’re not going to be infecting people unless they are in close contact with your bodily fluids. Basically, unless someone with Ebola throws up on you in public, you’re safe. It’s spreading in areas with no real sanitation, so everyone is exposed to everyone else’s bodily waste, and where people are interacting with corpses with no protection.
Ebola is an extremely nasty disease. That very nastiness, however, is one of the main reasons it’s so hard to catch. Someone who’s infectious is simply not going to be in contact with many people, as they will either be dead or they’ll wish they were, and not be out in public.
Remember, even the family of the first guy to die in the US didn’t catch it. Even at the feverish stage, only the bodily fluids of the infected person can spread the disease, not proximity.
In summary, no-one is easily spreading Ebola.
I concur with this. From what I hear, you start vomiting frequently, having diarrhea frequently and a host of other things … you’re either going to die or seek help quickly … won’t be walking around town amongst the people or ‘sleeping it off’ with some medicine at that point
No, actually I don’t run to the doctor for every little thing. However, if I was running a 103 degree fever yes I’d go see a doctor because that’s serious in an adult for whatever reason it occurs. Certainly, if I was frequently vomiting and shitting on top of that I’d go to an ER.
And, just FYI - I haven’t been anything other than poor for the better part of a decade now, but thanks for assuming I’m wealthier than I actually am.
You keep repeating this meme that you have to be vomited or shit on to catch the virus. It passes through body fluids. That includes sweat and semen. Both a nurse and a doctor walked around with the virus. One of them traveled. Either of them could have had sexual contact or passed it on through sweat after a workout. The idea that it suddenly becomes infectious at 103 deg and not 100 has no basis in fact. It doesn’t turn into something different at 103 deg. It doesn’t spring forth at 103 deg. The rise in temperature is an indication the immune system has recognized it and is responding to it.
The current response does nothing to limit people coming into the country with the virus who don’t currently show symptoms. Once in the country they will engage in the same behavior that spreads viruses. Once the initial link is gone then there is no way to trace the path and isolate likely candidates. And that’s how it spins out of control.
Please show us the evidence that this is true. You keep making broad declarations, but they appear to be incorrect, and certainly not supported by any scientific data.
Doctors who have actually worked with Ebola for years say that it is not communicated by people who are not exhibiting symptoms. Why should I believe you and disbelieve them?
Actually doctors who have worked with Ebola for years are being a lot less absolutist in their statements as compared to public statements being made by officials who have no prior experience working with Ebola. Which seems to be a point that Magiver has made over and over.
I tend to believe the doctors who have worked with Ebola for years over blanket absolute statements made by doctors who have not worked with Ebola.
From: An Introduction to Ebola: The Virus and the Disease as published in the Journal of Infectious Diseases back in 1999 by C.J. Peters and J.W. Peters. C.J. Peters is a former chief of the Special Pathogen Branch at the CDC and has extensive experience researching dangerous pathogens including Ebola.
internal citations omitted
emphasis added
Key point. Such patients were rare, but were found as noted in a workup of the Kikwit outbreak…
Ebola Hemorrhagic Fever, Kikwit, Democratic Republic of the Congo, 1995: Risk Factors for Patients without a Reported Exposure also published in the Journal of Infectious Diseases in 1999.
internal citations omitted
That’s 5 patients positive for Ebola with no reported prior physical contact with an Ebola patient, nor an Ebola patient’s bodily fluids, but who did visit an Ebola patient.
Peer reviewed studies by experts.
So what about an asymptomatic patient transmitting the disease to others? Michael Osterholm, an epidemiologist who has worked on Ebola and who was appointed to the National Science Advisory Board on Biosecurity, had this to say about whether a person who is infected but lacks symptoms could transmit the disease: “It’s really unclear. None of us know.”
So what prior experience does current CDC director Thomas Friedan have working with Ebola? None. How about Ebola Czar Ron Klain? None.
If your argument is based upon an appeal to authority, it helps if the authority you cite actually has some relevant expertise.
Iggy: Well, I still don’t agree with you…but you did provide a cite and evidence, so you’re way ahead of others here. Thank you!
Should also include snot and vaginal mucus as well but you keep forgetting to add them to your list.
Er… you seem really obsessed with the notion of sexual transmission. Just how much sex do you think goes on during shopping for bridal gowns? Seriously, you make it sound like the aisles of airplanes are covered in humping passengers and men are wandering the street spraying semen on complete strangers.
The problem here is that a LOT of things can raise your temp to 100 without you even being ill with anything - running/working out, stress, anger, too much clothing in an overheated room… A 100 degree temperature alone doesn’t mean you’re necessarily sick with anything although it’s certainly worth looking further at the patient.
A 103 degree fever, regardless of cause, is dangerous in any adult human being. ANYONE with a 103 degree fever has some sort of serious problem that should be diagnosed and treated.
And… this is largely because there is no easy, non-invasive way to find virus in someone with no symptoms.
I realize you think it’s criminally negligent but I’m OK with the current system, where people coming from high-risk areas are monitored and their temps taken a couple times a day. They can then be isolated and treated at the earliest sign of symptoms, but those who never get sick are minimally impacted.
OK, first problem here is that not all viruses spread in the same manner.
Second, no, people will not being coming over from Liberia or Sierra Leone or anywhere else and engaging in massive orgies followed by smearing sweat, snot, and semen on random passers-by as you seem to imply.
Third, this obsession with semen you seem to have: every source I’ve seen talks about the virus being in semen AFTER the illness. Please provide a cite that a man’s semen becomes infectious BEFORE he starts showing other symptoms. Sure, that might be the case but provide PROOF. We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance with facts, not guesses and speculation.
Except it’s not spinning out of control, is it?
You’re talking about guilt by association, of imprisoning people for no other reason than they happened to be in proximity with a particular other person. THAT could spin out of control, too.
Quarantine should be imposed based on FACTS and REASON, not fear and panic.
I don’t think anyone has denied that if an Ebola patient sneezes into your bare face that the flying snot is, indeed an airborne bodily fluid. In that sense, yes, Ebola can be airborne. However, it needs to stay in those airborne fluid drops in order to remain viable. The virus by itself does not float about in the air.
So yes, you could have “aersolized” fluids in the air of a room of a patient with Ebola. That is why medical personnel treating Ebola patients gown up so thoroughly and wear face masks. Fluid droplets can be thrown into the air. They will also inevitably fall down within a short time period. Snot is not lighter than air, it doesn’t keep floating up into the stratosphere like a helium balloon.
However, it is NOT like smallpox (as an example) where the virus apparently can float by itself on the air. The last outbreak of smallpox occurred when the virus traveled through air ducts from a lab to a room above the lab, like rising smoke, to infect a woman working there. THAT is what is typically meant by something being “airborne”, floating extensive distance on air currents in a very small particle form that is not inclined to fall down.
There’s probably a different way to convey this - perhaps saying “yes, if you were standing next to a person with active Ebola who was coughing or sneezing directly on you, you would be at risk but it’s not something that will be floating in the air for days after an Ebola patient leaves a room”. But in our world of soundbites and dumbing-down news stories I guess that’s too complicated.
I think the President should appoint a Hand-Washing Czar. That will take care of all infectious diseases. For starters, s/he can install hand-washing stations at all points of entry into the USA and armed troops to make sure people wash their hands before they enter the country. The Canadian and Mexican borders might be a problem. Especially Mexico, since ISIS will be coming in that way. People should be asked to save the little soaps from hotels and send them to a collection point in Uvalde, Texas, where they can be distributed to the appropriate places. We’ll keep this thing under control if everyone works together.
We also need a song to rally the public. Someone else will have to do that, as I’m not musical enough. And get a bunch of famous singers together to sing it. Use the funds raised to buy hand soap.
Anyway, clearly Ebola is Obama’s fault since he was born in Africa and not Hawaii as his False Birth Certificate claims.
And slowly your argument peels away. First you had to be vomited or shit on to contract it. Then you admitted it transfers through semen and vaginal fluids. Now you’re admitting it moves in mucus.
This is where we move on to surfaces that are contaminated from the residue of sneezes. Ebola can last for a couple of hours in the dried state up to2 months under the right conditions.
It’s time you stopped with the goofy insistence that people have to be assaulted by body fluids from an infected person. If it was that hard to catch then it wouldn’t spread as fast as it does. I don’t know what you think they do in Liberia but vomiting and shitting on each other is not on their list of things to do. It’s a virus that travels just like other viruses do. It’s not the jack-in-the-box projectile vomiting Linda Blair circus show you keep making it out to be.
It doesn’t spread fast at all, and no-one’s changed their story. It is only transmitted by bodily fluids, and you are only likely to catch it if you are messing in an infected person’s puke and shit. If someone who’s not currently shitting out their digestive system coughs on you, nothing will happen.
The idea that you could catch Ebola from dried snot is as absurd as the idea that you could catch HIV from toilet seats. It’s exactly the same scaremongering lies that were told about that disease. They are equally hard to catch, the difference is someone’s infectious with Ebola for days, but with HIV for, potentially, decades.
Are you worried that someone with AIDS will cough on you and infect you? If not, why are you worried about that with Ebola - a disease that has infected orders of magnitude less people, and is equally not airborne.