It's the National Anthem! Show some respect!

The BBQ Pit
41

IMO, standing still for any national anthem is respectful and nice, but not required.

An anecdote from my youth:

I was in marching band, and we were out on the field, practicing the national anthem. We had a fundie football coach, who was leading practice on an adjacent field. He made his players stop what they were doing, face the band and put their hands on their hearts. Meanwhile, since the band was rehearsing the song, the band director would cut us off and offer some constructive criticism (hey Smith, you’re flat and it sounds like shit!), then restart the band. This went on for twenty minutes or so. The band director caught on to what the coach was doing, and being a non-fundie, he waited until the players were in the middle of wind sprints or dipsy doodles or whatever, then get us to strike up the anthem for a few seconds, then stop. The coach, having the mental capacity inherent to fundies, never caught on…:smiley:

42

Damn, here I was thinking this was gonna be a rant about all the shitty renditions I’ve heard by overpaid “stars.” I still say the last good performance I heard was by a Marine at Bush’s inauguration.

43

Yeah, there’s not much need for a full stretching exercise. I was talking about when they shuffle their skates back and forth during the anthem(s).

Perhaps you can take a moment from delighting in this alleged irony and explain to me exactly what part of expressing opinions on appropriate social behavior is violative of personal freedom.

44

Should I ever get that chance, I will.

But in all seriousness…can you give me a good reason why they can’t all just stand there quietly and respectfully? Like I said, it’s not as if they are charging into battle the very second the last note is sung. They’re gonna have a few minutes in which to loosen up after the anthem is over.

And, to agree with mhendo…I don’t object to people not standing for the anthem. If you choose not to stand, that is your choice and I will not be offended. The thing that bugs me is people chatting, looking around, moving around, etc. If they just sit quietly, I’m cool. And I do get the irony of it. But I guess I feel that there’s a difference between being respectful and feeling as if your personal freedom is being violated by showing respect during the anthem of the country that gives you that freedom.

Also, I agree HEARTILY with your rant about how the anthem is sung. I much prefer when it is led by a regular joe who won’t put all sorts of “stylings” into it so the whole crowd can sing along. Nothing gets me like 70,000 people all singing the anthem together. That’s what it’s for, not for us to hear how high-pitched Mariah Carey can screech. Blecch. Give me a choir any day.

45

When you play in the Super Bowl, make sure you set a good example for those animals.

46

Crap. Almost made it three years without a double post. Apparently, I suck after all.

47

I don’t know much about the Amish.

For example, I don’t know if the wearing of somber, dark clothes is an actual rule, or merely long-standing tradition.

But I do know that if an Amish man decided to go out one morning dressed in a bright orange shirt, polka-dotted tie, and baggy yellow parachute pants, he’d be making a strong statement. Because there’s an expectation that all Amish dress similarly, his choice of clothes would be a way to say, without words, that he was distancing himself from the group - that in essence, he was choosing to set himself apart from the rest, and he wanted anyone who looked at him to know it.

So, too, do I believe that those Americans who choose to sit during the national anthem are making a statement. They are saying, in essence, that they are not a part of this group.

Of course, it’s unclear which group they mean, and what the reasons are for the separation. One person may believe that the US government system is awful and should be violently overthrown; another may simply dislike the group-think aspect of everyone standing.

I stand during the anthem, with hand over heart, unless I’m in K of C regalia, in which case, I render either a hand or sword salute. I do this because it’s a way to symbolize my respect for the flag and the country.

It doesn’t mean that those who don’t do it lack that respect, of course.

  • Rick
48

Well, maybe i overstated the case somewhat, because no-one here has actually expressed a desire to physically force people to stand.

Still. who’s to say what’s “appropriate social behavior”? You think that it includes standing for the anthem; i think it includes sitting for the anthem but not disturbing other people; some apparently think it includes stretching and warming up. In a situation where so many opinions seem to exist, why not let each person do his or her own thing? There’s no reason that someone sitting down, or some football player fidgeting around should lessen your respect for the anthem.

And, whether it involves force or not, the notion of dictating what others should do when it has so little effect on you is rather ridiculous, IMO. If you want to stand and put your hand over your heart, by all means go right ahead; i’ve never suggested that you shouldn’t. But if you, like the person quoted in the OP, tell me that i “should stand still with [my] hand on [my] heart and looking at the flag,” then don’t be surprised if i tell you to go fuck yourself.

Personally, as i suggested in my last post, and as asterion implied, i think the people showing the most disrespect to the anthem and its purpose is the idiot entertainers who sing it. I’ve never heard a song so mutilated and distorted by a bunch of overpaid egomaniacs.

49

Yes, those are our respective opinions as I stated in my post.

I don’t care what you do during the national anthem. I was responding to your claim of an abridgement of liberty because somebody posted an opinion on a message board (though, in fairness, yours was less extreme than the cry of fascism and claim that the coach has no legal right to tell his players to pay attention.)

People have opinions on how people should act in public. It’s fine if you don’t agree, but the expression of an opinion isn’t an inherently unreasonable thing.

50

Well, that came off a lot snippier than I intended, mhendo. I tend to respond when people make spurious claims to rights being trampled, so I replied to you. But I think we generally agree. I don’t care what people do during an anthem.

Between hockey and international soccer, I’ve been to a pretty good number of games where multiple national anthems have been played. When I saw Mexico and Italy play in the World Cup, for instance, I stood for their national anthems because I believe it’s a sign of respect for Italians and Mexicans.

Now, you probably don’t agree with that and that’s fine. But expressing an opinion isn’t necessarily ridiculous. The OP thinks athletes should stand still out of respect. It’s hardly an overbearing request by a person too blinded by patriotism to see the other side. It’s an opinion in a non-threatening medium, that’s all.

51

Actually, sales of concessions and other goodies do cease during the national anthem at many venues I’ve visited recently. Sun Devil Stadium (Arizona Cardinals) and Anaheim Stadium (Anaheim Angels) come to mind immediately.

At Anaheim, ticket-taking at the gates stops, as well.

I don’t understand why some folks are attempting to equate standing still during the national anthem with patriotism - that’s a hell of a logical leap, to me. I regard it as politeness.

52

[quote]
*Originally posted by jr8 ***
AFAIK, Americans are the only ones who put their hands on their hearts, though. Anyone know of any other cases? **
[eddie izzard]
“You and the Romans are the only ones who put their hands over their hearts…you are the next roman empire. There’s nobody else going! So you’ve got vomitoriums and orgies to look forward too. Let the president lead the way!”
[/eddie izzard]

53

On that note, and for the latter reason, I stay seated for the Hallelujah Chorus (it’s a little late to violently overthrow Handel, after all). And people give me funny looks for that.

National anthems are representative of a country and, by extension, the people of that country. If I stand politely for, say, the Mexican anthem, I do so out of courtesy and respect for those to whom that anthem is signficant (i.e. Mexicans), and hope that they will pay me the same courtesy when the US anthem is played. The “standing still” thing is because you’re supposed to be paying attention to (and possibly singing) the anthem instead of serving hotdogs or whatever. As I said before, a little decorum won’t kill you. Decorum is better served by staying in your damn seat.

OTOH, people stand for the HC because everyone else does, and everyone else does because apparently George II did. And frankly, George II having a leg cramp is not IMO a good reason to block the view of the concertgoers behind you.

54

You’re right, we do agree on most things.

There are people who disagree with my decision to sit but respect my right to do so - i have no quarrel at all with them. There are others who disagree with my decision to sit and do not respect my right to do so, and tell me i should be standing - those people can lick my chocolate starfish.

And i never really thought that my rights or anyone else’s were being trampled by the opinons on this board. The expression of an opinion is never, by definition, the same as depriving someone of their rights. I suppose my position is that, in cases like this where someone else’s decision to stand or sit has no direct bearing on anyone but themselves, it is in the spirit of America’s freedom-loving reputation to let them do what they think is best. Even the fidgeting of the athletes that the OP got so exercised about should have no effect on whether the OP is able to show respect for the anthem. I think the person quoted in the OP needs to worry less about what others are doing and instead worry about his or her own response to the anthem.

55

mhendo, I’m genuinely curious to know WHY you don’t stand for the national anthem. I find it odd, but if I knew your reasons it may make more sense to me.

56

Well, it’s mainly a personal (and, i concede, largely ineffectual) protest against the sort of excessive nationalism that anthems tend to reinforce, particularly in countries like the US and Australia, where i’m originally from.

The anger and hostility displayed by some people towards those who don’t stand is, it seems to me, pretty good evidence of the excessive deference to symbols of authority shown by certain sections of the population.

People say that standing is a sign of respect. Well, put simply, i don’t stand because i don’t have a great deal of respect for the relatively abstract concept that anthems tends to represent. I don’t respect “the United States” or “Australia,” because to me such a concept tends to imply unconditional support. I respect certain people and organizations and ideals and actions within those countries, and i dislike intensely other people and organizations and ideals and actions. I feel no need to participate in a ritual that, to my mind at least, reinforces a veneer of unity while glossing over important and problematic divisions.

I’m quite aware that my personal attitude to anthems is just that - a personal one. I don’t expect other people to see things the same way i do. Plenty of people stand up for plenty of good reasons. I respect their decision to do so, and when anthems are playing i stay seated and quiet so they can pay their respects.

The closest analogy i can think of is a religious one. I’m an atheist, and if i happen to be visiting a Christian household where a prayer is said before meals i will sit quietly and wait for the prayer to finish. I will not, however, bow my head, close my eyes, pretend i am praying, or say “Amen,” because i prefer to be honest about my beliefs. I will just stay quiet and allow everyone else to pray or not, as they see fit, the same way i sit at the ballpark while others choose to stand.

And finally, off the topic a bit, i reiterate my earlier point that, the way the Star-Spangled Banner is sung at most sporting events, it has lost much of the dignity and the public participation that was meant to accompany an anthem in the first place.

57

Well said, mhendo. This sums up my sentiments exactly. I’d like to know why anybody eles cares what other people do during the anthem.

58

Oh please…
It’s a simple matter of respect.
I played football for more years than most people attended school. If anything, the anthem always was part of my pre-game ritual.
I stood at attention, helmet off, hand over heart.
Proudly singing my national anthem.
It helped me get my game-face on.
It helped me get pumped up.
It brought tears to my eyes. Still does.

I also have stood in silent, respectful attention for the anthems of other countries.

I’m in a venue where the National Anthem is played, I still stand at attention, facing the flag, hand over my heart and sing proudly. If a flag is being raised or lowered, I’ll stop and stand in respect.

It’s the right thing to do.

59

“Oh please…” what??

I’ve never derided people for standing during the anthem; you can do whatever you like. I didn’t ridicule your rituals, but simply offered an explanation for why i don’t do it.

It’s flag-and-anthem fundamentalists like you, telling everyone else what is “the right thing to do,” who give me the shits. You manage to use “respect” or “respectful” three times, but never say exactly for what or whom you are showing respect.

When i sit quietly while the anthem is being played, in what way am i showing a lack of respect for you and your right to stand and sing with your hand over your heart?

I happen to believe that giving money to the homeless on the street when you have some spare coins is “the right thing to do.” But i don’t look at everyone who walks by them and pass judgement on those people for not giving. People have their own reasons - important or trivial, it doesn’t matter - for doing or not doing things, and i’m not that interested in whether everyone else does things the same way as me or not.

60

—It’s a simple matter of respect.—

I agree. Every time I take a dump, I sing the complete national anthem, and I expect everyone within earshot to stand still, hand over heart, until I’m done. It’s simply a matter of respect. Don’t let the music stop!