It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program.

[JRDelirious]

“Innocent until proven guilty”= rule for a court of law

“You embarass the organization and we’ll fire you first and ask questions later” = rule for your employer. If they’re in a good mood they’ll offer to let you resign first after you apologize contritely.

I thought that was solidly established to be how employment works. The Court of Public Opinion is not a fair and impartial court, hey, that’s life.
And those PennState students/boosters rioting over this can go get crammed.

[Mince]

@brickbacon

…that there was not in fact an investigation, or that Paterno knew the truth about the steps the AD and others took?

Again, how hard would it be to ask questions, given a young boy’s (and possible future young boys’) livelihood was/were at stake? Do you really think Paterno fulfilled his obligation regarding this issue?

[diku]

Ok, for Starving Artist, Da Mikster, and Brickbacon:

Why does it matter what Paterno knew? Seriously, why does it? It was still his locker room, still his program. If he wasn’t in control of his program, then he should be out anyway.

I said it up above, in any other situation the guy in charge would be out. If the former COO of a company still had access to the company buildings, and the CEO knew that he had access, and that COO was caught raping a kid at the building, the shareholders would demand the ouster of the CEO. And rightfully so.

But a football coach?

And if you think there are degrees of sexual assault with regards to kids…a few things.

1. Do you think any sexual touching without consent is assualt? If so, do you think a ten year old has the ability to consent?

2. Maybe if someone would’ve called it in when it was just minor touching it would’ve been stopped before it got to full blown rape.

[Mince]

@MsWhatsit

Any lingering doubts I might have had about Paterno’s culpability (and frankly I didn’t have many) disappeared when he refused to quit until the end of the season, forcing the university to fire him instead. And particularly his comments about “the victims or whatever.” He clearly doesn’t consider the molestation a big deal, certainly not more important than PENN STATE FOOTBALL.

Oh, but it’s so much juicier when they fire him. I didn’t want this cretin getting off with a “retirement.” He had to continue so that they could fire his lame-duck ass.

[Starving_Artist]

@tnetennba

So which side of this argument is rioting and tipping over cars and throwing firecrackers at the cops?

Not germane to what I said, which was to contrast the way the situation should have been handled vs. the way it was. The students’ behavior has nothing to do with that. On the other hand if it’s your position that people simply get outraged over injustice and therefore your side is just as entitled to behave irresponsibly as the students are, I would only point out that the students aren’t destroying lives and creating an atmosphere where a witness with knowledge of a serious crime is more likely to respond by saying to himself “Fuck that shit, I ain’t about to get involved!”

[FixMyIgnorance]

Under this logic, isn’t all eyewitness testimony “hearsay”?

How does the whole thing work?

Is there merit to the idea that Paterno, if the GA were wrong, could have seriously damaged Sandusky’s career by reporting him to the police?

[Mince]

@Starving_Artist

He did what at the time he thought was the right thing to do. So did Paterno. As has been mentioned upthread, Sandusky was no longer under Paterno’s employ and neither he nor McQueary had any reason to cover up for him. They simply did what their experience and training taught them to do, which was to go up the chain of command, trusting no doubt that the campus police would be notified and an investigation launched. This is the way criminal activity involving school personnel has been handled in colleges all over this country. So they did what they were supposed to do. Now their motives are being impugned and they’re being excoriated and their lives ruined simply because they didn’t intuit that they should behave differently than they’d been trained to do. The logical and reasonable thing to do would be to prosecute Sandusky (and Curley, Schultz, etc. if there is evidence of criminal wrongdoing or a cover up) and then all school personnel should be notified that there has been a change in policy and henceforth any knowledge or suspicion of felony-level crime is to be reported directlt to the local police. That would be the sensible and most effective way to go about it. But no, instead everybody has to jump to the conclusipn that it’s a cover up, that Paterno and McQueary are as bad as Sandusky himsef, and that henceforth Penn State past and present is to be hated for all time and if the local newspapers had any integrity they’d ban the letters “L”, “S” and “U” from their pages. It’s utterly ridiculous the way people are reacting to this incident and the ultimate result is likely to be the exact opposite of what it would be if this incident had been handled reasonably instead of at the hands of impassioned people with blood in their eye.

So, reporting was Paterno’s only obligation? Given a young boy’s livlihood might be at stake, and it was reported to him that Sandusky was engaging in the very behavior for which he was sanctioned before (under his employ or not), you don’t think it might be one of his responsibilites to assure a proper investigation occured? Fire and forget is your stance?

[ladyfoxfyre]

@Starving_Artist

[snip]I would only point out that the students aren’t destroying lives and creating an atmosphere where a witness with knowledge of a serious crime is more likely to respond by saying to himself “Fuck that shit, I ain’t about to get involved!”

He’s not being fired for having knowledge of a serious crime, he’s being fired for having knowledge of a serious crime and not notifying the police. Surely your tiny troll brain can grasp that difference.

[MsWhatsit]

@Starving_Artist

I would only point out that the students aren’t destroying lives and creating an atmosphere where a witness with knowledge of a serious crime is more likely to respond by saying to himself “Fuck that shit, I ain’t about to get involved!”

When raising my children, I often have cause to tell them, “I don’t care what everyone else around you is doing. You are responsible for following the rules and doing the right thing.”

If a witness to a serious crime says “screw this, I’m not getting involved” (by the way, tsk tsk, such language, SA) because they feel the “atmosphere” isn’t right, that does nothing to reduce their moral culpability.

[Starving_Artist]

diku, sorry, I’m out of time. Maybe later.

ladyfoxfire (and you have no idea how ludicrous it is to think of you as either a fox or a lady), I’ve already explained why it’s wrong to fire Paterno for not reporting it to the police. If you didn’t get it the first time I doubt you’d get it now either.

[ladyfoxfyre]

@Starving_Artist

ladyfoxfire (and you have no idea how ludicrous it is to think of you as either a fox or a lady), I’ve already explained why it’s wrong to fire Paterno for not reporting it to the police. If you didn’t get it the first time I doubt you’d get it now either.

Ah yes, I disagree with you, so I must not be a “lady”. Oh, burn! You got me there!

And my comment was not about the ethics of firing him for not reporting it to police. It was about your ridiculous assertion that the recent actions at Penn will make people in the future less likely to get involved when they witness a child being raped in a shower stall for fear of being vilified in the court of public opinion. Nobody’s being fired because they knew. They’re being canned because they knew and didn’t act.

[MsWhatsit]

@Starving_Artist

diku, sorry, I’m out of time. Maybe later.

Heh. It’s been a while since I hung out in a thread where you were active. You’re still doing this, huh?

(Does this comment make me not a “Ms.”?)

[Starving_Artist]

@MsWhatsit

When raising my children, I often have cause to tell them, “I don’t care what everyone else around you is doing. You are responsible for following the rules and doing the right thing.”

If a witness to a serious crime says “screw this, I’m not getting involved” (by the way, tsk tsk, such language, SA) because they feel the “atmosphere” isn’t right, that does nothing to reduce their moral culpability.

I think you’ll agree that moral culpability is pretty meaningless in an atmosphere where a witness is afraid to speak up for fear of unforeseen backlash against him.

And now I’m out.

[Duke]

There are a couple of things that make me curious now about everything.

1. Why did president Spanier get the “quit or be fired” ultimatum? The grand jury report doesn’t even mention his name once. Schultz and Curley were the ones accused of burying the accusation, and the grand jury report never once suggests that they or Paterno spoke about it to Spanier. So why did the Board want to can him? Did they just want to get rid of him, as has been rumored for years, and see this as a convenient time?

The interesting thing to me about Spanier is that his name never came up in the whole matter until Tuesday, then the next night he’s gone. Speaking of which…

2. Paterno wanted to hold his press conference on Tuesday, but Spanier personally canceled it. The decision came from his office, not the athletic department’s office. This morning Mike Lupica suggested that the president’s office canceled the conference not because embarrassing questions might be asked, but because there might be even more damaging stuff coming out about the university. Paterno repeatedly said this week that he wanted to field reporters’ questions specifically about this issue. Now that he’s fired, is he going to fight back with some new revelations?

[ladyfoxfyre]

@MsWhatsit

(Does this comment make me not a “Ms.”?)

Don’t forget ugly.

[ladyfoxfyre]

@Starving_Artist

I think you’ll agree that moral culpability is pretty meaningless in an atmosphere where a witness is afraid to speak up for fear of unforeseen backlash against him.

And now I’m out.

Who is being vilified for speaking up, exactly?

[jayjay]

@FixMyIgnorance

Under this logic, isn’t all eyewitness testimony “hearsay”?

How does the whole thing work?

Is there merit to the idea that Paterno, if the GA were wrong, could have seriously damaged Sandusky’s career by reporting him to the police?

Sandusky didn’t HAVE a “career” at this point, really. He was retired from coaching since 1999. Because the Centre County DA chose not to pursue charges in the 1998 complaint, he qualified on retirement for the privileges of a professor emeritus, which is why he basically had the run of the place…he had an office in the Athletic building and keys to pretty much everything (Athletic building, Beaver Stadium, etc). And yet all that really happened to him because of the 2002 incident (the one in question under all of this current furor) was that he was told not to bring boys on campus anymore (note that this was more than TEN YEARS after the 1998 complaints and his 1999 retirement). Sandusky actually still had privileges on campus until at least last week, and was actually seen around the sports facilities then.

[madmonk28]

So the students take to the streets when they find out that their coach was fired, but not when they found out that their athletic facilities were used as a child rape room. Glad to see that Penn State has its priorities straight.

[Starving_Artist]

@ladyfoxfyre

Ah yes, I disagree with you, so I must not be a “lady”.

No, that’s not the reason.

[MsWhatsit]

@Starving_Artist

No, that’s not the reason.

You said you were out! Dude, you are going to miss your appointment or whatever it is you are going off to go do, if you keep coming back here to respond. Go go! Punctuality is a virtue!