It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program.

Fuck’s sake, pay attention.

You went out of your way to say we can’t trust the claims of the kid because sometimes they lie about shit like that. Yeah, maybe, one in a thousand times. You don’t take that one time and go, “See! You can’t trust them kids!”

And this particular case is even more overt than some unscrupulous adult making accusations, or some preternaturally evil genius 10 year old out to submarine football coaches. There was a goddamned witness! Giving the kid the benefit of this particular doubt should be the absolute minimum that happens, followed immediately by disbelieving the creepy asshole who’s already been busted for this shit once in the past.

*How *old did you say you are? :D:D:D:D:D

I said no such thing. I merely pointed out that in the courtroom the word of former victims were taken as fact (and since there was no complaint by either you or the defense, the implication is that this is perfectly legitimate), yet on the other hand when a former victim states that he was not raped on the night McQueary saw him in the shower, your immediate assumption is that he’s lying and covering up out of embarrassment. (And again, this despite the fact that he’s spoken openly of other abuses which took place at other times!)

You are the one who’s chosen to make an issue out of whether there’s a question as to a child complainant’s testimony. I spoke originally only to your hypocrisy in in accepting without doubt victim accounts of abuse by Sandusky while at the same time denying their account when you disagree with it. To the degree I’ve spoken about other aspects related to a child’s accusations of sexual abuse, it’s only been in response to your apparent eagerness to discuss the discuss the subject and a result of my desire to see justice done to the greatest degree possible.

But I’m beginning to suspect that all this is just a face-saving dodge anyway, an attempt to distract from the fact you stepped in it when you were trying to prove I was wrong about the shower rape, only to be brought up short when I reminded you that the victim himself said it never happened. :smiley:

The victim disagrees with your assessment of what he said. Which is why he’s suing.

Putz.

Let’s deconstruct things, shall we?

Initially you said this:

To which I replied:

… pointing out what I thought was the fucking obvious.

Your retort:

… clearly implying their - their (see my bolding) - testimony is suspect; you just can’t trust them, can you?
But what I can’t figure out is where the fuck did I accept without doubt victim accounts of abuse by Sandusky while at the same time denying their account when I disagree with it? I believe it was you, fuckhead, who made the implication that you can’t trust kids who say they’ve been molested because one of the lied about it to get you in trouble that one time or some fucked up thing.

I daresay your problem is your underlying assumption that facts matter to Starving Artist.

My 12 year old is 5-7.

SA I have two questions for you. Although I might regret it I am curious. And although I can’t promise about others I will not attack you regardless of how you answer.

Leaving aside legal obligations completely.

  1. Could Paterno have done anything to stop Sandusky.
  2. Should Paterno have done anything to stop Sandusky.

And as a bonus, since it has been lost in all the nitpicking, do you think (you are not on a jury so use whatever level of proof you want) that Sandusky is innocent or guilty of all or some of the charges?

See, this is where you go off the rails. It just happens that multiple victims testified against Sandusky in his trial, and without exception that I’m aware of their testimony was accepted as true and factual. I mentioned this to lend weight to my observation that while childrens’ testimony was accepted as fact in the Sandusky trial, and which seemed perfectly fine to people such as yourself, thereby implying that you felt the children’s word was honest and their accounts reliable, you suddenly do a reversal when it comes to an account you don’t like and you accuse the child of lying due to embarrassment. The only reason I used “their” is because it highlighted the commonality of the practice. The rest of it exists only in your fevered imagination.

You haven’t overtly said you accept without doubt the trial testimony of Sandusky’s victims, but you overwhelmingly imply it with your impassioned-to-the-point-of-ridiculousness insistence that we always take seriously accusations by children and your obvious willingness to throw “1 adult in 1,000 cases” under the bus in your determination to see actual abusers brought to justice.

Say what? I never said some kid lied to get me in trouble for molesting them! Are you even bothering to read what you’re responding to or just skimming it looking for piss-off points?

Why am I even bothering with you fucking people? There’s not a one of you who can read for comprehension. Or come close to accurately recounting what I’ve actually said in this thread! :rolleyes:

Okay, he’s pissed off instead of declaring “winning!”; now’s the time to declare victory.

Means nothing. The kid across the street just turned 13 and he’s a foot taller than he was when I had dinner over there early last summer.

You’ve approached me in this calm and reasonable manner before and I responded respectfully in kind and lived to regret it because your subsequent posts revealed that approach to be merely a front and you’ve been insulting to me subsequently in ways that make me not too kindly disposed to indulge you. Still, others may be curious as to what my answer would have been, and others will no doubt accuse me of dodging the questions, so I’ll answer anyway.

Of course. So could any number of other people. The question is, did they know what Sandusky was doing? I haven’t seen any evidence that Paterno had any idea of the reality of Sandusky’s abuse, nor of how long it had been going on or how long it continued to go on.

It depends on what you mean by “stop” Sandusky. Do you mean prevent the ten years of abuse? If Paterno knew that Sandusky was continuing to sexually abuse and rape children after the shower room incident that he did take action on, then of course I think he should have done whatever he could to put a stop to it. If he didn’t know, then I don’t see how he could have been expected to put a stop to it.

I think he’s guilty of most of them. In fact I’m certain of it. I’m even relatively sure he was to some sort of no good in the shower room that night. I’m less sure that the kid was aware of it though. He might have been or he might not, depending on what was actually going on and how far things had progressed at that point. But it’s never been my belief that Sandusky was innocent of abusing children. I just don’t think he was raping the kid in the shower room, and therefore I think that using the pain and suffering the child allegedly suffered that night to condemn Joe Paterno for is bogus.

I congratulate you on the tiny step you’ve taken towards sanity… from being absolutely certain there was no rape to “I just don’t think he was raping…”. It’s a baby step, but it’s progress. Well done.

Let’s just say I know it to a legal certainty. :wink:

See that what I can’t understand about you. You plant your flag on hills and decide to die it for no logical reason. The child was sexually assaulted. That was proven in court. Why is it so important to you that it was “only” sexual assault?

I have never been one to call for Paterno’s head. I don’t believe he committed a crime. I do believe he buried his head in the sand. He did the bare minimum and nothing else. It is inconceivable that any right thinking person would report a horrific event to his “boss” and then never find out what happened or why nothing was happening. Regardless of if the word rape or molesting or sexual contact was used. What kind of person does that?

A person who felt it was being handled. Paterno came to realize that Sandusky had some sort of sexual problem when it came to children. I don’t believe he had any idea just how serious it was though or just what all went on. At any rate he felt it was serious enough to warrant action and he reported it to Penn State’s administration, who he met with later and joined in a decision to force Sandusky to seek treatment for his problem or face having his known behavior reported to his charity and the Dept. of Human Welfare.

I don’t know what happened after that. He may have believed that Curley and Schultz were handling it, and that Sandusky was getting the help he needed and the problem had been taken care of. Again, I don’t know, that’s just speculation.

What I do know is that he reported it and a plan of action was undertaken that seemed both humane and in keeping with what most people in a position of authority would regard as a wise and proper way to handle the problem. There was no talk at any time among the people involved expressing concern about Penn State’s reputation, it’s alumni donations or its football program. Rather the focus was on getting the problem addressed while still not ruining a man’s home, reputation and family life, and not negatively affecting The Second Mile charity who all involved believed was doing a lot of good for a lot of disadvantaged children.

Keep in mind also that Sandusky was no longer under Joe Paterno’s authority or supervision and therefore really wasn’t his problem to deal with. Sandusky had been out of the football program for three years at the time of the shower room incident, and from three to thirteen years by the time the incident came to light. For how long was Joe Paterno supposed to be keeping tabs on this person who he had no direct contact or control over and who wasn’t even employed by the same university department? Technically, any of the school’s department heads bore as much responsibility for stopping Sandusky’s behavior during that ten year period as Joe Paterno did.

I can tell you that if I were in Joe Paterno’s shoes I would not be trying to find out all the gory details of exactly what happened either. And I wouldn’t be appointing myself marshal over the next decade to ensure that he never misbehaved again. I would endeavor to find out if a serious problem exists and I would take steps to get it addressed. Once that was done I’d wash my hands of it and try not to think of it again, trusting that the people I’d reported it to were handling it as they were supposed to, and expecting that the threat of Sandusky’s being arrested and their being held culpable for his subsequent crimes would be sufficient to ensure that they did their job.

People simply don’t go around endlessly following up on crimes and misdeeds they were at one time responsible for taking action on. You’re a police officer, right? Do you endlessly keep tabs on the people you’ve arrested to see if they’re continuing to offend once they’re back out on the street? Do judges strive to keep up with the lives of people they once sentenced to make sure they aren’t committing more of the same types of crime? When a supervisor in a large company has a discipline problem or personality clash with a subordinate who gets transferred to another department, is he expected to keep up with that employee indefinitely, trying to keep tabs from then on as to whether that employee’s still acting out and behaving the same way in his new job that caused problems in his old one, and coming in for criticism if he doesn’t?

The world just isn’t wired that way. People learn of problems and they take steps to deal with them, then they get on with their lives. My guess is that Paterno learned of the problem, took steps to deal with it, and then most likely simply got on with his life in the belief that the problem had been handled. And I think that’s what just about anyone lacking the benefit of hindsight and the ability to second-guess would do.

Well, that’d make you a better Paterno than Paterno was. Congrats.

SA, nobody wants to touch this subject, so it goes largely uncontested when emotionally charged, intellectually lazy people slander Joe Paterno’s name. You, on the other hand, have the rare ability to address the uncomfortable truth with fact-based reason, logic and actual evidence. Those skills need a productive outlet, perhaps via @Zigmanfreud.

I don’t know how to respond to that. Damn you, Poe’s Law!

Could you be more specific about this? What “sexual problem when it comes to children” do you consider “not serious”?

And there’s NoLittlePlans! How y’all doin’?

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. :smiley:

Why? Is he squatting?