It's time to officially Pit Joe Paterno and the Penn State football program.

The BBQ Pit
1501

This moron cannot open his mouth without lying. There’s been no testimony that McQueary “wasn’t even sure of” what he’d seen. None. It’s especially idiotic to choose today for this latest fable, as McQueary emphatically testified about ten hours ago that (while he did not actually see Sandusky’s unit entering the kid’s anus), he had no ambiguity that a severe sex assault was taking place. That “I didn’t see the actual penetration” will be familiar to anyone who’s ever been in a courtroom as a so-what cross exam attempt at impeachment. Impressive only to a not-very-smart person; seize on some tangential issue not necessary to prove the state’s case, and make a big deal out of it. In real courts and real life, people and courts and juries rely on reasonable inferences based on far less complete facts. “I heard sex noises and saw a guy right behind the kid with his hands braced on the wall.” Yep, anal rape pretty conclusively established. [faux indignant scumbag defense lawyer]“But isn’t it true you didn’t actually see the penis going in and out?” “Uh, no, but then, I didn’t really need to, there’s not many other scenarios that look like that.”

McQueary has never said (NEVER, dumbass) that he “wasn’t sure” of anything. You cannot just make up facts, liar.

There is no evidence or sworn testimony that says Paterno or McQueary thought the report was “questionable.” And because Paterno himself said “fondling or sexual contact” [AND BECAUSE FONDLING IS A FORM OF SEXUAL CONTACT], there was, in Paterno’s mind, ZERO room for thinking that he’d been told of something that only “might have” been sexual activity.

And yes, you sound exactly like a pedophile traying for some tortured distinction between illegal and illegal sexual contact with a child, between “fondling” and “sexual contact.”

1502

Not going to happen unfortunately. for a lot of reasons. One logistical reason would be they haven’t won that many titles of late. More practically, it wouldn’t really mean much to symbolically declare the titles null and void. And, the NCAA only punishes athletic program, generally, for misconduct that gives the programs an unfair athletic advantage, which would be a tenuous argument here at best.

1503

Yeah, even I’m not really sure what I was getting at, but as time goes by and the whole story comes out, I’m sure I’ll have an evolving understanding of what I was saying.

1504

It’s ok, you don’t have to try to explain yourself.

You just happen to have a different set of beliefs about what rises to the level of requiring police or follow up action. That’s not a crime - you are just not like most people in that regard.

1505

So, when you were in school you had 50-60 something year old men running around the locker room with you? When you were 10-12 years old? No wonder you don’t see anything wrong with this behavior.

Explains a lot.

1506

Just curious: when you were 10 years old, did a naked 50 year old man tickle, hug, and wrestle you while you were naked and give you “lessons in showering” ? If so, that might explain why you think such behavior is normal and acceptable, and you have my sincere condolences.

1507

Is there not a single person on the Nancy Grace side of this thread who can read for comprehension?

1508

Is Nancy Grace a poster here? I just searched and don’t see any posts by her.

This is the Straightdope Message Board and you just posted in a thread in one of it’s forums, were you trying to post somewhere else?

1509

You clearly cannot, for one. On a day when McQueary testified under oath that he had told Paterno of something “extremely sexual in nature” being done by a naked old man to a naked boy, you posted something about the concept of sexual contact with a child but not necessarily illegal.

Retard – work on your timing.

1510

Sorry, kids, but I’m off to a Christmas dinner with family and friends where there will booze, revelry and plenty of good eats.

In the meantime you will be free to continue your dishonest and moronic context-free cut-and-paste jobs in a desperate effort to try to make it look like I’ve said things I haven’t said, because insults and dishonesty are apparently the only weapons you have.

Have fun!

1511

Stay away from the kids . . . .

1512

That must have happened a lot in the Fifties. Child rape didn’t exist until the liberals took over in 1968.

Joe NEVER went to the police, no matter when he realized he wished he’d done so or how badly he wished it - which is something that never occurred until the charges were filed. All he did was to put the matter in the hands of the people who’d have to handle the cover-up for the university and for his precious football team and for himself. Never once did he do anything to help the raped boys, or to keep Sandusky from raping more boys. For him, it was all about protecting his friend and his football program.

Here’s a hint, friend: When everyone you hear is telling you you’re wrong, and if you’re a responsible adult, you do at least consider the possibility. Since you will not, what other conclusion can we draw about you?

1513

**Bingo, Bango, Bongo! **

That’s classic, yet very appropriate.

You owned him on that one.

Where’s the thumbs-up smilie?

1514

Let me put this as succinctly as possible - I don’t give a shit! Mmkay?

I don’t believe Paterno had sufficient evidence to go to the police even if it had occurred to him to break longstanding campus practice of turning allegations of criminal activity over to university officials, and to take action counter to how the law was deliberately written to mandate just that. What was he to do? Call the police and say “I’ve got a guy here who says he saw a former coach in the shower with what looked like a ten year old boy yesterday and he was doing, uh, something sexual with him. Uh, no, I don’t know what is meant by ‘something sexual.’ No, I don’t know who the kid is. No, I haven’t heard any complaints about anything that happened in the shower yesterday. Yeah, okay, I guess I’ll go ahead and report it to the university’s administration anyway since I’m a mandatory reporter. Sure, I’ll let you know if anything else turns up. Okay, thanks. Bye.”

I mean really, what do think even the police could have done it? Question Sandusky? It’s already clear he would have denied it. So then what? Are the police going to go from classroom to classroom asking kids in every elementary school in town if somebody screwed 'em in the shower the day before? The whole situation would have been what amounted to one guy’s word against another, with nothing but supposition as to the crime, and with no known victim and no way to identify him.

The whole thing was a non-starter from start to finish. I have no doubt that that’s also why nothing came of it after Curley and Schultz became involved. There was simply no way to find out anything further unless someone came forward as a victim, and none did.

But we are living in a state of phedophile hysteria in this country and have been pretty much since the advent of the internet and TV shows such as To Catch a Predator. So the instant McQueary’s allegations hit the news media, people began screeching for heads to roll, with Paterno unfortunately being the most famous and therefore the one drawing the most ire.

All this crap about how Paterno should have called the municipal police and how the fact he didn’t makes him evil incarnate is just so much bullshit - a stalking horse whose only purpose is to justify making Paterno the scapegoat.

And as far as your post is concerned, all this crap about how he did only the minimum required is bullshit too. He did what he was supposed to do and he did it right away. There is not a shred of evidence that he intended for anything to be covered up, and there is not a shred of evidence that Curley and Schultz covered it up. There was nothing to cover up! Got it? No victim, no crime. Without a complaining victim there was simply nowhere for the investigation to go! All this crap about cover ups and protecting precious football teams is nothing more than supposition; you can’t prove a word of it. And what do you mean he did nothing to help raped boys? There is no evidence that Paterno ever knew of an actual raped boy to begin with, much less one he could have done anything about.

So, to put it bluntly, you’re wrong. About everything.

1515

I guess a good place to start looking would have been kids involved in Second Mile. Heck, I’ll bet someone there might have had a good idea who Sandusky was with that weekend.

1516

Let me put it to you this way: you should go to the police any time you think a child may be being harmed. Even if you’re not 100% sure. It’s not your job to ascertain if a crime has been committed. It’s the police’s job. Citizens who think they may be privy to a crime, any crime, should call and let the police figure it out. This is many magnitudes more true when the victim is as child.

YES. Honestly, I don’t know how McQueary, seeing what he thought he saw, didn’t IMMEDIATELY call the police, after bodily harming Sandusky and taking that child away from him. But let’s say he was too shocked to intervene. Calling the police is your duty when you witness a crime, or even think you may have witnessed a crime. You don’t have to know the name of the victim to do so. If I saw someone maybe breaking into my neighbor’s house, I’d call and let the police figure it out. I wouldn’t need to know the name of the robber OR the name of the homeowner. If I heard from my underling that he saw one of my staff in the shower naked with a 10 year old boy, and was touching him in any way, even WITHOUT allegations of rape, I’d call the police. A grown man fondling a naked boy is cause for police involvement. Even if you don’t care one whit about children, and are a totally cynical actor, you should STILL call the police if you think a child is being molested at your facilities, because of just the fallout that is occurring right now.

This is silly. This is their job! They would investigate. They are able to figure out much more difficult crimes than this. Don’t forget that pedophiles almost always have multiple victims. Just a few questions would have yielded an avalanche of evidence.

It is not their job to decide if it’s a crime, and what to do. It’s the police’s job. This is why they are in trouble.

I always try to imagine myself in all the roles in a situation. If I were anyone in the college administration, I would want to get the police in ASAP to cover my ass. If I were the parent of one of the molested children, I’d be enraged that no one called the police. If I were McQueary I would have beaten Sandusky to within an inch of his life when I saw him raping that child. So it seems to me like any reaction short of at the very minimum calling the cops is an underreaction.

I have seen no compelling reason not to call the police. You can call the police for any reason and they have to at least listen. Ever called the police on a noise complaint? I was told to call the police when my car was sideswiped in the parking lot with no witnesses, just because they should have a record of it. If allegations of child molestation are being made, they would most definitely investigate even if you only have a sketchy idea of what was going on, though the circumstances seem much more clear than sketchy to me. I have faith enough in the police to believe they would be able to figure out who the boy was and go from there. It was NOT Paterno’s, Curley’s, or Schultz’s decision to make. They are not law enforcement and it is not their job to determine if a crime is taking place. In some states (not sure about PA), college sports coaches are mandated reporters, just like secondary teachers and coaches. That means ANY TIME you even slightly suspect child abuse to be happening, you must hotline it. There are criminal penalties for not doing so. Does this obligation to children not exist unless you are legally obligated to exercise it? How can that be so in a moral society?

1517

Rubystreak, that was the best post in this entire thread.

1518

Thanks. I don’t know what came over me. I haven’t posted here in over 2 years and I definitely don’t want to make this place a part of my life anymore, but I felt like a key point was being missed by both sides, and in this conversation in the wider world. Please, if I get dragged back into a multi-page debate over this very simple point, slap me.

I keep thinking of that Woody Woodpecker cartoon: “If Woody had gone straight to the police, this never would have happened.” Seriously, folks: if you see a naked man touching a naked boy, just call the cops. End of story. I feel silly even saying it but apparently, sadly, it needs to be said.

1519

But Rubystreak was responding to one of the most idiotic posts in the entire thread. It’s been pointed out to that cement head, SA, a hundred times that Paterno had the moral, if not the legal, responsibility to contact the authorities and that’s why he was Pitted in the first place. SA just can’t get that through his thick skull.

How do you think that the police solve crimes? People give them information and they sort it out. How do they catch fugitives? How do they track down serial killers? People give them information and they follow-up on it. Tips come in and they investigate. Not all leads are good but sometimes there is a diamond in the rough. In SA’s world everyone keeps their mouth shut because there is no “legal” responsibility. SA’s world has no morality, only a legal code.

If Paterno had picked up the fuckin’ phone and let the cops know of what McQeery told him you can bet the police would have been on it in an instant. The police would bank that with other information and the whole matter would have been solved years ago. Sandusky would either be in prison or vindicated. Paterno would look like a bigger hero than he was ever perceived to be. His legacy would be intact and McQeery would have learned a huge life lesson about personal responsibility. A life lesson taught to him from his hero who mentored him. As it is, these people should feel nothing but shame.

Everyone should learn from this. Do the right thing for the right reason. The easy thing for the convenient reason is not enough. Tell your kids.

1520

I can’t believe there is any debate about calling the police if you see a naked man touching a naked child in your locker room shower, whether you think rape was happening or not. Period. Full stop. What’s the debate?