I found your reply confusing, Styron. All of the quotes from my reply were taken directly out of “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” by William L. Shirer. You were the person who erroneously claimed this book did not discuss lampshades, based on your extensive “research” at [laughter] amazon.com; I think I acknowledged several times that the fact lampshades appear in any book did not make it so. I don’t know if it is. Either do you, or for that matter, Cecil.
Shermer is also a Secular Humanist (per his book “How We Believe”). He may be ethnically Jewish - I don’t know nor does he appear to comment on it in that book (though I didn’t reread the whole thing looking for it).
He describes himself as being a Born Again Christian in college before becoming a Secular Humanist.
Styron’s trail of cack-handed citations continues: none of the words quoted in the post above were written by Shermer. The passage is actually by Kim Murphy, the journalist whose LA Times article Shermer forwarded in his newsletter. He evidently broadly endorses Murphy’s remarks, but it’s pretty basic that they can’t be attributed to him.
In your indignation, you seem to be missing the very basis of the discussion the rest of us were having. Every single poster has started by taking Cecil’s remarks as a given. To think that appealing to his column is somehow a sensible citation in defence of your argument is silly: we’re all, explicitly or otherwise, refering to his column. Look at the name of the forum.
Furthermore, by adopting this position that’s little more than an appeal to (otherwise vaguely cited) authority, you’ve missed the whole point of what the column does. Cecil doesn’t survey a bunch of historians: he outlines the evidence and weighs it according to his judgement. Cecil (or Shermer for that matter) doesn’t expect you to cite his conclusion as beyond dispute. He expects each reader to consider and judge the evidence themselves.
What this thread was about until your arrival was Cecil’s readers testing his argument, either by amplifying details that couldn’t be covered in the space of a column or suggesting and critically examining leads and evidence he doesn’t specifically address. Few of expect that any serious Holocaust researcher would learn anything from either Cecil’s column or the threads about it. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t interesting discussions about the evidence that can be kicked about. Feel free to contribute if you’ve got something specific to offer.
Just for giggles, I note that one believer in the lampshades has already been mentioned. At least to judge from his 1994 interview with Shermer I quoted from Denying History above: Raul Hilberg.
[sub][In fairness, Hilberg’s phrasing strikes me as off-the-cuff. He doesn’t address the issue at all in either The Destruction of the European Jews or Perpetrators, Victims, Bystanders, but that’s not terribly surprising.][/sub]
Computers, remarkably enough, only search for what you tell them to.
If you use Amazon’s Search inside the book to search for “lampshades” you will indeed get no hits.
But if you seach for “lamp shades” as two words, pages 983 and 984 come up, just as Dr. Paprika claimed.
As mentioned earlier, Shermer isn’t Jewish.
Shermer’s Why People Believe Weird Things is a few years older than the article you cite, but in that book he goes through some pretty detailed data and comes to the final figure of about 5.8 million Jews killed in the Holocaust.
By the way, calling people halfwits doesn’t exactly help your case.
[Moderator hat on] Name-calling is NOT permitted in this forum, Styron. Consider this an Official Whack across your knuckles with a ruler.
If you want to use derogatory terms, go to the forum called BBQ PIT and you can call almost anyone almost anything. But not in this forum. Clear? [/Moderator hat off]
I found a website with some evidence that skin shades existed. Take it how you will.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/appendix-8-01.html
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/buchenwald/images/buchenwald02.jpg - image of stuff found.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/skin.html And another page.
Since the few shreds of pride I retain reguarding my intelect were none the less wounded by being labled a “halfwit”, here goes.
So, here’s a simple Logic 101 question for ya.
Since I have SEEN a “leather” lamp perported by respectable sources to be POSSIBLY human skin, and since this lamp is VERIFYABLY from a German concentration camp, and since no proof DIRECTLY REFUTEING this PARTICULAR lamp has been presented above, can one locically state, based on ANY source, the IMPOSSIBILITY of even a SINGLE lamp?
It seems to me, in the face of an untested specimin, the POSSIBILITY of the existence of such lamps must, simply, be ceeded. And, the question happily, safely, and INARGUEABLY left open. Along with this thread.
There. Mess I created all tidyed up.
thewooz
*Since I have SEEN a “bigfoot” monster perported by respectable sources to be POSSIBLY an unidentified simian, and since this monster is VERIFYABLY from the Pacific Northwest of America, and since no proof DIRECTLY REFUTEING this PARTICULAR monster has been presented above, can one locically state, based on ANY source, the IMPOSSIBILITY of even a SINGLE monster?
It seems to me, in the face of an untested specimin, the POSSIBILITY of the existence of such monsters must, simply, be ceeded. And, the question happily, safely, and INARGUEABLY left open.*
Sorry. Couldn’t resist. 
Anyhoo…
Not to be overly sensitive, but giving creedence to somebody running screaming out of the woods claiming to have seen a monster with no supporting evidence is vastly different than leaving open the possibility that an at least verifiably exsistent lamp may or may not be made of human skin. The only reason for my last post was the insinuation in a previous post that this somehow constituted belief in an “urban legend”, or the propagation of such. I’m not saying my monkey’s uncle saw it, I’m not saying I saw a picture and I believe it. I am saying I have seen this lamp, the museum claims it to be of German origin, possible of human skin, and and you can call and check. Those interested call Truman State’s special collections desk at 608-785-4537, 7:30-5 M-F.
My post was in jest, wooz, so don’t take it personally. While I myself actually lean towards the possibility of Nazi “skin-lamps”, from all I’ve read so far in this thread, it seems that no one has yet found or provided actual proof (i.e. using scientific analysis) that any supposed Nazi lampshades are actually made of human skin. And, in your last post, wooz, you actually say…
The bolding of “possible” [sic] is mine, but that word itself indicates that the museum, while claiming the lamp is of German origin, does not have actual proof that the shade is made from human skin, and are simply speculating.
In the end, I’m sure many people would concede that there’s a possibility that Nazi’s made lampshades out of human skin. But many people would also concede that there’s a possibility that biological life exists elsewhere in this vast universe. However, until there is evidence to prove either of these possibilities, they will simply remain possibilities.
Anyhoo…
DR PAPRIKA in post number 30 was both correct and accurate.
HUMAN SKIN LAMPSHADES. It might have been better if he further expalined that only evidence of one lampshade was ever discovered. It was said that this was a tattoed prisoner whose skin had drawn attention to him. In a 1945 photograph this lamp shade was photographed with alongwith a shrunken head and other artifacts, about 6 in number. The rumours were highly exaggerated.
SOAP FROM JEWISH PRISONERS: During the war a rather ghastly bar of cheap German soap was made, it was of very poor quality, sold in blocks and was cut with a wire. It was ordinary soap and not derived from human bones, fats, or tissue. It was used in some camps. As a joke the guards told prisoners it was made from Jews, and if they gave them [the guards] any trouble - they would see to it that ‘they would go to the soap factory’. A joke that was in poor taste and which spread like fire amongst the prisoners. It was untrue. There was never a soap factory or a soap made from prisoners remains.
THE BIRKENAU BAKERY. Human nature being what it is many NEW prisoners thought the gas chambers and smoking chimneys were a bakery or factory. Others thought the buildings might be what it was claimed they were, e.g. ‘delousing / bathouse & bathing centre’. Prisonere were told ’ If you give us any trouble you will go up the chimneys - so the rumours circulated by the guards were on this occasion true.
NO ONE WILL EVER BELIEVE YOU. Was often said by the guards to Jewish prisoners and this unlikely boast was TRUE?
TRUE-BRIT, LEEDS, ENGLAND.
Well, an actual witness to this has died: James Hoyt, age 83, a mailman in rural Iowa, who was one of the first four U.S. soldiers to enter Germany’s Buchenwald concentration camp, died August 11th.
Mr. Hoyt, like many WWII soldiers, never spoke much about his experiences in the war. Most of the residents in the small town had never heard about it. But he did speak to a journalist recently. And he mentions specifically the skin lampshade:
Note that he says that he actually saw the lampshade. So there we have the testimony of an actual witness. And one who was there when the camp was liberated, before any such ‘urban legends’ would have started. It’s true that he didn’t do any DNA testing on the lampshade; that was long before DNA testing was invented. I suppose the lampshade could have been deer skin, but where would they get a tattooed deer?
Personally, I’m inclined to give a lot of credence to this actual eyewitness testimony. There probably was at least one such human skin lampshade. But I also think this was probably very rare, maybe even the only one. After all, they had millions of Jews & gays & gypsies to murder, and were probably too busy to spend much time on such ‘diversions’. And half their victims were Jews, who would not have tattoos, as they are forbidden by Jewish religious rules.
Here’s a link to the article
Sure, the Nazis were capable of just about anything. And there certainly was at least one such lampshade- who made it on whose orders and from who is unknown, becuase it never was used as evidence and disapeared. But we can assume it was real. OK, but the whole idea of why dudes were so horrified was because they only had the one, not rooms full of them.
We have evidence of rooms full of gold teeth and such, but those are considered a minor horror. When Nazi’s did things, they usually did them in a big way. If they had killed one Jew, it likely would never have been mentioned. But they killed millions, so that’s why the Holocaust.
So, I am willing to accept one, once, that was apparently destroyed. I am willing to bet the rest were copies (to show how horrific the nazi’s were) and not made from human skin.
Thus, I agree with t-bonham@scc.net.
Styron “Even the widely accepted figure of 6 million Jewish dead all over Europe has been questioned in recent years by some of the world’s most prominent Holocaust scholars.” Yes, that was an estimate. The newer, better figure is 5.8 million, which means that six million was in fact a pretty damn good estimate. And, even if it was “just” 5 million- that doesn’t invalidate anything.
The only common “lie” that is commonly propagated about the Holocaust is the quiet, almost foot noted “…and millions of Slavs, Gypsies, and homosexuals, too” as if their deaths are not quite as important.
Talk about your blasts from the past. I forgot all about this thread, and while I knew there was never any widespread production of skin lampshades, I forgot how solid the evidence is that there was one, or perhaps a few.
Also, Cecil’s column was updated at some later date.
I agree. The Nazis were inhumane enough, but making soap or lampshades out of people takes resources and time that most of them would not have been able to devote or spare.
It is not true that Jews are forbidden to have tattoos. And I apologize for the assonance.
I personally fail to see why such an item should be held in a museum, anyway.
Either it’s an ordinary lampshade and it is worthless, or it’s the real deal and out of respect it shouldn’t be put on display, IMO.
It depends how how seriously Jews take Leviticus 19:28. Some Jews do not keep Kosher either, but nobody is going to argue doing so is not against Jewish teachings.
I’m sure that most of you who are following this thread have already found this, but for those of you who haven’t, it contains a picture of the lamp in question.
Beat you to it Washoe by posting that link in post 25.
Only four years ago, mind you. 
:smack: