I've suddenly become mortally petrified of undergoing general anaesthetic (personal identity Q)

But if I’m sedated, then I’m not really “me” any more, because my thoughts aren’t really “my” thoughts! They’re thoughts brought on by the sedative!

(Actually, this is a very commonplace feeling among people taking certain classes of anti-depressant or anti-psychotic meds. There really is a feeling of “This isn’t the real me.”)

But, what the heck. I’m not the “real me” when I get angry, or when I’m startled, or when someone gives me bad news. Our brains have lots of coping mechanisms that involve measurable and objective cognitive changes. I’m not the “same person” I was ten minutes ago. (I was reading posts in the BBQ Pit, which caused dramatic changes to my brain! Woot woot!)

I’ve had a loss of consciousness. One minute I was going to open the garage door. The next thing that happened was that I was standing there confused, and my head hurt.

Part of the garage door had fallen on my head. But I don’t remember being hit on the head, because the blow to the head prevented the memory of being hit on the head from transferring to long-term memory.

Did I actually die and get replaced with an exact duplicate when that happened?

If continuous consciousness is necessary for the continued existence of “you” then you’ve already died and been replaced hundreds of times. The notion that ordinary sleep “doesn’t count” as losing consciousness doesn’t make sense. Yes, you dream sometimes during sleep. Except most of the time you don’t dream, you’re only dreaming some of the time. Most of the time you’re unconscious.

Yes, you can be roused by certain stimuli, like noises or lights or being shaken. So? You aren’t conscious just because you can be roused. That’s like saying a turned-off computer is on, because if you push the power button it turns on.

Your brain does not shut down completely during anesthesia, or severe hypoxia, or a blow to the head, or when passed out drunk. You are unconscious, not dead. If merely being unresponsive means you’re dead, then my daughters have died many times since when I try to wake them up in the morning they are somehow able to keep sleeping.

The point is, there is nothing particularly unusual about “general anesthesia” that makes it completely different from other things that happen to you every day. Either your consciousness gets destroyed and recreated frequently, in which case you’re just going to have to get used to it or put a bullet in your brain, or your consciousness continues throughout in which case don’t worry about it.

You keep asserting this even when people are posting citations that say otherwise. Again, what piece of information could we provide to you that would change your mind?

He’s obviously had a root canal . . .

Unless you’re expecting the ‘you’ that supposedly dies during anaesthesia to flutter off and join the heavenly choir, there’s no difference between the ‘you’ that wakes up after dying, and the ‘you’ that wakes up uninterrupted.

Continuity is a logical concept, not a thing that has its own form of existence.

If he (she?) posts anything about actresses on Downton Abbey then we’re officially through the looking glass here.

Clearly the way to change his mind is to replace him under anaesthesia with a doppelganger who agrees with us.

I wasn’t breathing for minutes, enough to turn blue and have a firefighter perform CPR and give up, convinced I was dead.

I came to, hearing first then slowly physical sensation and sight last. I used to laugh sometimes that maybe I did die, and I’m in the afterlife or in some Owl Creek Bridge style death hallucination. woo woo woo woo

But hell I wondered if I had brain damage, so I asked my wife, and she said to her best ability as the person on earth who knows me best I seem fine and myself in personality. Maybe I was replaced by a imposter exactly like me, who can ever know?

Is there a name for these unanswerable questions? You know like what if I died last night and am now in the afterlife, which is exactly like regular life etc?

Is there? Where did you get that idea? Can you demonstrate to the rest of us that the ‘cessation of consciousness’ actually occurs? Can you demonstrate the ‘reboot’? In other words:

Cite?

I have been under general anesthesia twice in my life now, and I can tell you that both times I woke up as a different person occupying this body.

But, as it happens, all three versions of me are total dicks… So there is some consistency to this conscience anomaly.

Hopefully this will help:

Instead of focusing on the cessation of brain function, ask yourself if the new consciousness who wakes up after GA is not you, then where is it coming from?

In the transporter scenario, you have a very real reason to fear that the new consciousness is not you – it is composed of other molecules and energy that has been formed into a perfect simulation of the previous you.

In the GA scenario, no one has added any new material or energy to your brain. They’ve simply put your brain into a deep, drug induced sleep where there is still some level of brain activity. Your brain wakes up on it’s own when the drugs wear off, no one “reboots” it. When your brain comes “back” to consciousness it is doing so entirely with the same energy patterns and matter that was there when it went to sleep, allowing for the passage of a little time. If the new consciousness is no longer YOU, where did it come from? It’s you, you can relax. I’ve been through it 3 times and it is exactly like a deep sleep.

The power of suggestion, during a time the brain is susceptible. At one point the surgeon said, “Wow, I could really use a couple tacos rights now,” and, boom, the patient has obsessions about Mexican food for the entire rest of his life.

(er…joking, of course…)

(Well, okay, halfway joking: I could actually sympathize with a claim that people under light anaesthesia might have some susceptibility to suggestion. If I were in a “twilight sleep” and the doctor intentionally started trying to plant suggestions – “You’re very hungry. My goodness, you’re so hungry…” – might it not have some effect?)

(It doesn’t count in my case; to paraphrase Bruce Banner, “I’m always hungry.”)

Get him a cat, instead. Their ‘I’m GOD, and you’re NOT! Serve me, NOW, vile monkey!’ attitude instills a much needed level of humility in the human pet, while still leaving a cute, cuddly kitty as a reason to live. Dogs only do ‘Throw teh ball… THROW TEH GODDAMN BALL, DAMMIT!!’.

I have epilepsy. Is my consciousness “rebooted” every time I have a seizure? Especially since I have no memory later on of what happened.

It’s certainly possible.

I’m still scared by the way. I’ve seen no convincing arguments.

ETA: This was written off the top of my head, and I’m not sure I ended up where I thought I was going when I started. Tl;dr: It doesn’t matter whether there is continuity of consciousness is any particular sense, just make the decision leading to the best outcome.

LifeSucks, there are no convincing arguments here, because you’re dealing with unsolved and possibly unsolvable philosophical problems here. To some extent, it can be reduced to semantics: what does it mean to be “you.” From that perspective, the answer just depends on your definitions. But there is in fact a real problem at the heart of the issue, namely the relationship between subjectivity and objectivity, or as philosophers usually term it, the “mind–body problem.”

Objectively, it can make no difference if you are (instantly and painlessly) killed and replaced with an identical copy. It seems obvious that subjectively, it does matter, since if you were copied first and then someone wanted to kill you, you would have reason to object. Of course, objectively there is a sense in which it doesn’t “matter” if you are killed slowly and painfully, since the only way in which something can “matter” at all is subjectively. The only reason a universe in which you (or anyone) doesn’t suffer painfully and pointlessly can be said to “better” than on in which you don’t is that you and I and others subjectively prefer it that way. Concepts like “better” and “matters” are human (and possibly animal) concepts that we developed–they don’t have objective meaning. This means that they break down as concepts when they get applied to situations that they weren’t developed for. It only matters to you that you not be killed painfully because you have a preference, but what is your preference about being replaced painlessly by an identical copy and what does it mean if the reasons you have for preferring or not preferring it conflict with other reasons you have for preferring things in everyday life?

Practically, the best argument is that your brain doesn’t shut down in a way is philosophically significantly different than in sleep. If you don’t mind going to sleep, you shouldn’t mind getting anesthesia.

That should settle the matter for deciding on surgery, but it certainly doesn’t answer the philosophical problem: What if your brain did shut down in philosophically significant but otherwise unnoticeable (to you) manner? Alternatively, what is it about sleep (besides familiarity) that makes it so obviously benign? If you lose some sense of identity with your previous self every time you sleep, does it matter? To whom?

But just as there is no possible test for preservation of subjective identity before and after anesthesia, and therefore no possible test to determine the same thing about sleep, there is likewise no possible test to show that you preserve your identity moment to moment.

Again, there is a semantic or definitional aspect to this that obscures the real issue. If you think about it even briefly, it’s obvious that there is some sense in which the “you” of five minutes from now is and isn’t the same as the you of now or the you of five minutes ago. The reason that you don’t worry about losing your identity moment to moment isn’t because you have some subjective experience that convinces you that you stay “you” but that can’t be communicated objectively. It’s that you have a rough understanding of what it is that changes about “you” and what it is that is the same, and you subjectively decide that the sense in which you can be described as “the same” matters more to you.

IOW, your preferences about what happens five minutes from now line up with idea that some of the things that happen will be happening to “you” and so you decide to think and speak about things that way. But there’s nothing objectively correct about that. You could decide differently. Have you seen the Seinfeld bit about “Night Guy” and “Morning Guy”? There is nothing objectively incorrect about deciding that you don’t care what happens to “you” in the future because that’s not really the same person as you now. People who think like that don’t act in ways that lead to happiness for their future selves (or other’s future selves) and so both evolution and social pressure select for humans who do identify with their future selves, but that doesn’t mean it’s scientifically correct.

Maybe in this case, though, the evolutionary and social pressures are not helpful, however. You normally want to identify with your future self because it will lead to outcomes that almost everyone subjectively agrees are better and that will lead to survival of your genes (and at least some aspects of your current thoughts, memories, preferences, etc.: “You” in other words). But here the opposite is the case.

From an objective POV, there are two possible futures, one in which a person called LifeSucks (whom you may or may not consider “you” for various purposes) has been through surgery and, hopefully, had some medical malady corrected, and one in which a very similar person also called LifeSucks has not been through surgery and hasn’t had that malady corrected. As a utilitarian, I know which one of those possible future universes fits my preferences. Issues of personal identity, which usually lead us to make decisions leading preferential outcomes, are here a mere distraction.

Which possible future universe do YOU prefer? In neither one of them do you have some metaphysical connection with the future you (assuming you are a materialist, or rather that materialism is correct). Nothing about continuity of identity seems relevant to deciding between them. From a practical perspective the you that exists now is the one choosing which of those universes will exist, and which “LifeSucks” will exist in them. That seems to meet most of the criteria you use in everyday life for deciding whether a future being is “you” or not. Transporters and souls seem relevant, but they aren’t. Just pick a universe and cause it to happen.

You’ve offered no convincing arguments that you’re right. I think the burden of proof is on you.

Looking back at that post (which I didn’t edit except to add the notice at the top) I think it’s incredible that I started off identifying the problem faced by the OP as one that may be fundamentally unsolvable, and then by applying (I hope) rigorous materialism and utilitarianism I … well, I think I solved it, at least for this particular case. It really confirms my belief that materialism and utilitarianism are much more powerful philosophical principles than people think, utilitarianism in particular.

Anyone who questions whether philosophy in general or utilitarianism in particular can solve problems should consider this.

BTW, I certainly don’t think I did anything original or groundbreaking here; I just applied well-developed principles to a problem. At most, I’m like someone who “discovers” the proof to the Pythagorian theorem for themselves. I’m merely working through on my own what others have already done. Assuming anything I said holds together at all. I welcome comments or criticism, especially but not exclusively from the OP.

Having now read that intelligent response, I would like to respond more pointedly to LifeSucks – You have not offered a single cogent argument that the unconsciousness of general anaesthesia is any different from other forms of unconsciousness. All you have done is repeat the same unsupported claim and simply ignore or blindly reject the counter arguments. Given that, I think more than a few of us can no longer be bothered to try to assuage your fears.

:rolleyes: You’ve offered no convincing arguments either.
(And other than feeling like shit after a seizure, I’m certain I’m not a “duplicate”)