Ivy League v. State colleges

Factual Questions
1

I was wondering what the real, no, REAL difference between universities was. I had a class in Russian History in my last year at my university, and it occurred to me that there is only so much you can write in a test booklet, and only so many facts that one can consider relevant. I know that there are some advantages to Harvard, such as great connections, and alumni lectures by Presidents, owners of megacorporations, etc…, but that can only go so far, IMHO, in a Russian History class that can be taught in regard to the subject matter and what information can be tested.
So, what is the real benefit of Harvard v. Podunk U?

Thanks,
greatshakes

btw, I think that Harvard isn’t Ivy League, just using it as an example.

2

Well, there are tons of factors, including class size, resources (libraries, facilities), caliber of teaching assistants and professors, and the size of Russian Studies department and its budget. A lot of the Ivies are definitely sub-big state schools in many fields but the top three have a lot of advantages, like a 32 billion dollar endowment and not that many students to spend it on.

P.S. How is Harvard not Ivy League?

Erdosain, a definite non-Ivy alum

3

I’m not sure why you’re discounting this. That’s pretty much it.

4

Don’t know if Harvard is or isn’t Ivy League, don’t care. Just using it as an example.

But, back to the main: how can the big budget/endowment affect me, Joe Student, if I get enrolled there by mistake some semester? Say, I show up for class with my little pocket protector full of pencils and my Big Chief notebook. Will I know more at the end of the semester, or more relevant facts if I go to one of these hotbeds of communism (just joking!)?
Thanks,
greatshakes

5

I didn’t discount them, I specifically called them advantages.
I was mostly wondering if that was what I’d be paying my 100k for, degree wise.
Howsomever, e.g., if Bill Clinton or W comes into the classroom as a guest lecturer, or Mike Millikin or Warren Buffett- I don’t see them spilling their guts about anything more than what could be read in CFR weekly, or whatever. If I would hear anything more, I expect it would be nothing other than Dick Morris hired 10 hookers in Jiddah, and the Secret Service, boy, did they have a time getting him out of town! Good stuff, but would I be more knowledgeable to perform in my degree field, say Liberal Arts or Scientific degrees (lets, for this thread, exclude Political Science, or diplomacy.)
Thanks,
greatshakes

6

One thing to consider is that often you’ll get better instructors at small, crappy community colleges. They’re more teaching-based, and places like Harvard put so much emphasis on research that teaching is just sort of this thing professors do to kill time.

One advantage to ivy league schools is that you really are a product of your environment. It certainly can’t hurt to be surrounded by a bunch of very talented people.

7

Just for reference, the Ivy League is an athletic conference, just like the ACC, SEC or Big Ten. Its members are Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Penn, Princeton and Yale.

That, and at the end of the process you get to list Harvard on your resume.

On the other hand, you do have the opportunity to interact with faculty who are world-class scholars in their field. And while there is some truth to the stereotype of research-minded professors who only teach because they have to, it is certainly not universally true.

8

The Ivies are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Dartmouth, Columbia, Brown and Penn.

I went to Dartmouth. The difference of any elite school, IMO, is the quality of the faculty, the quality of the students, the education opportunities available, the very small class size, and the access to world class resources.

9

You seem to be under the impression that the purpose of education is to enable you to regurgitate facts. If this is your goal from a school, then there is no advantage to an Ivy League institution. But that should not be your goal from a school.

10

This is absolutely the advantage. I went to a fancy college, and the biggest advantage was that all of my fellow students were smarter than me. Also, they were there because they also had a love of learning, not just to get drunk every weekend. (Im just using the binge-drinking as an extreme example; of course not all college students at Podunk U are binge drinkers.)

FYI, the Ivy League is an athletic conference consisting of Harvard, Yale, Brown, Dartmouth, Penn, Cornell, Colombia, and Princeton. It’s not a ‘maybe’ term. ETA: beaten to it!

11

Nope, I’m not under that impression, and I’m sorry that I gave that…er, impression!

12

I had some damn good teachers at my fancy research-based school. Damn good.

Actually, I can only think of 3 bad ones.

I knew one professor who remarked (in private, to a friend of mine) that the reason he was depressed was that he had to deal with undergraduates. And even he was a decent teacher.

13

Just for the purpose of thoroughly screwing with the OP’s mind. One of the Ivy League Schools is actually a partial State School.

Cornell University has seven, I think, separate undergraduate schools within the University: Arts & Sciences, Engineering, Agriculture, Human Ecology, Architecture, Hotel Management, and Industrial and Labor Relations. Three of those schools are actually part of the SUNY system: Agriculture, Human Ecology, and ILR. The tuition at the State schools are less than at endowed schools, and significantly less for in state residents.

So, if going to Cornell’s Ag school as a NY state resident lets one take courses (within the limits of one’s major requirements) at any of the other schools, is there any difference between the Ivy and State school education? Even with the intangibles mentioned by the OP?

14

Every ivy leaguer I know says that the hard part of an Ivy league school is getting in. Once you are in a school is a school. They do not reinvent math or physics. There are some well known profs but still there are no secrets. It does provide better connections for the future though.

15

I agree with this. Having lots of other highly motivated and knowledgeable people around is very intellectually stimulating.

I went to both an Ivy League and a state school simultaneously. Cornell is a member of the Ivy League, but some of its component colleges are state instutions. I officially went to the New York State College of Agriculture at Cornell, so I was an Ivy League Aggie.:slight_smile:

16

I went to Dartmouth for grad school in behavioral neuroscience. I went to Tulane for undergrad.

The whole point is the atmosphere to push you really hard among peers and they all deliver on that. You can do anything and money (not yours if you have the talent) is not an issue and you have access to the very best of everything available in the world. It is like being a very driven spoiled kid in an academic candy store. The competition, atmosphere, and peer factor is the key.

Just to clarify, not all outstanding U.S. universities are in the Ivy League. MIT, Stanford, and CalTech call walk all over most of them in engineering and most large state schools have an outstanding program than is better than any given in the Ivy League.

It depends on what you want really. The U.S. is probably the undisputed leader in undergraduate studies for most subjects and certainly the best for most graduate studies as long as you pick the right school. State universities are certainly not something to be laughed at. My home state of Louisiana is not known for education but everyone supports LSU in sports and academics, some of which are among the best in the world in their focus.

17

I attended a state school for my undergrad, and I’m currently working on a graduate degree at Harvard.

To be honest, there’s not that big of a difference between the two experiences (other than what one would expect to be different between an undergrad program and a grad program). I don’t feel suddenly enlightened because I’m sitting in these classrooms, listening to these people. I don’t think that I do much more work than any graduate student in a similar program would do elsewhere. I don’t even think that being surrounded by this type of learning community makes THAT much of a difference. To me, it’s more about what happens next. I’m going to Harvard because of the opportunities it will give me when I have that degree in my hand, not because of the opportunities it gives me now.

So, I guess the biggest difference between the two… is that people THINK there’s a difference between the two. Someone reading my job application next year is going to assume that my education was better than that of other applicants.

Oh, and also, people (including professors) at Harvard use bigger words than the average person at a state school, at least in my experience. I mean, like ridiculous words that no one else ever uses in normal conversation- you hear them all the time at the Ivies.

18

Now, I didn’t go to an actual Ivy League school, but it was better than some of those. I also went to grad school at a large state school, and I now teach at another University. I strongly disagree with what you have said here. College for me was really fucking hard. Where I teach now? Not as much.

In fact, that’s another advantage: expectation. At a fancy school, it is expected (by your profs and your peers) that you are there to learn. Where I teach now? My students are there to get a job. I had a student tell me he spent over an hour :rolleyes: on a certain homework assignment. This was no first-year, neither. WTF? An hour?

I don’t mean to say that you can’t get a quality education at a non-fancy school. But you don’t necessarily have to in order to graduate.

ETA: happiness: Can you comment about the undergraduate education at Harvard vs. Big State School?

19

Let’s expand this to top notch, exclusive private schools, since not all Ivies are at the top of their class. I’ve been to one such, and was a grad student at a top state school and a not so top state school. There are real differences.

First, the private schools have money. This is especially true today when most state schools are feeling pressure from state budget problems. This means that top schools can afford stuff like 4 year dorms - an advantage in my book.

Big state schools have honors programs where you get to do research. Privates are kind of like 100% honors. It is also usually easier to get the classes you need at private schools without a fight.
Don’t knock the reputation thing. It has helped me a lot. Private school alumni associations are very strong, and if you want to get involved you can make tons of connections even after you graduate.
At top research schools you get exposed to what is going on in your field right now, and you are indeed surrounded by very bright people. It is quite impressive to be taught by a Nobel Laureate. Fewer students also means it is more likely to make contact with really top guys in your field.

A lot of this depends on the student. There are plenty of students on whom a top private school would be wasted. I paid the big bucks for my older daughter, and it was well worth it.

20

I think the gist of the OP’s question requires broadening the schools in question beyond the monikered eight — include, say, Chicago, Stanford, Amherst, Swat, MIT, etc. Actual membership in the Ivy League doesn’t make a difference in education at top tier schools. It’s a question for another thread which schools makes it into that rarefied tier.

As an analogy, consider a general notion that is occasionally raised about the board; why some consider it a haven in the ‘net: the level of discourse and the overall quality of debate. Of course that needs to be taken with a grain of salt itself and there is a lot of nonanalogous imperfections, but the overall sentiment that what makes this board special and worthwhile is the (perceived) caliber of the population.

To help with the analogy, recognize that many posters here, if not already well regarded for their work or heavily involved with someone who is, will in time be disproportionately represented in other areas of the ‘net.

Now consider what it would be like if Cecil participated with regularity, and most mods were well known, highly regarded within their fields, and several of them were Nobel laureates. (Er, not that they’re not now!)

How fast would threads/classes move? How much below the surface of ostensibly simple questions could conversations and explorations go? I recognize that there are great posters and writings on other boards, but the signal to noise ratio is seldom what it is here. The overall elevated nature of the experience makes a difference to education.

Are some mods chuckleheads? Of course — not every professor is great. But the vast majority of them are towering intellects. Are some students content to get by with Bs and Cs? Of course, there are goons everywhere. At the top tier schools, however, there is a filtering process that doesn’t exist here, and the percentage of trolls and troglodyte is kept to a relative minimum.

So (to me) the most important difference between the tiers is in the overall quality of discourse on campus and how that propels the learning experience. Facts are facts, but the Core of a liberal arts education is analysis.