Here’s my totally honest, perhaps naive, question.
Why does everyone have to be so hung up on gender? Why can’t we all just be non-binary? Seriously. Be attracted to whomever you’re attracted to, fuck whomever you want to fuck as long as they want to fuck you. Wear whatever clothes you like. The end.
Why should anyone care if someone feels like deep down, despite having a penis and testicles, they are really a woman? What does that even mean? You are what you are, you like to wear pants or you like to wear dresses or maybe it depends on your mood. You like to suck cocks or you like to eat pussy or maybe you’re asexual or something else. Who gives a fuck?
As I’ve stated, we are in agreement on this point. We appear to be in disagreement over whether or not there is widespread support to the contrary. I still don’t see that support… even your link isn’t very convincing (to me).
Not going to lie, I find this response extremely frustrating. It tastes of “this is only an isolated incident so nothing to worry your head over” condescension I was worried about.
The widespread support is evident in the fact it was allowed to happen at all. It went on for years. And it took a federal lawsuit to stop it. And the ACLU (a group I used to give money to, but not any more) was against it. And even in this thread, I’m having to bend over backwards (see above) to prove that indeed these trans girls won races, even though it’s a Title IX violation regardless.
Can you name one well-known progressive leader who is pushing for women sports to remain women-only? You say that no one is against that, but who is actually rallying for it? Making it a voter issue? No one with power is, and so trans women in women sports continues happen.
In regards to the NY council seat, I agree the article was a misgendering hot mess. But the event in question is not in dispute. It happened only a couple of days ago, and you can verify with other sources. That’s what you asked to see, and I delivered on it. But instead of acknowledging that, I’m getting exactly what I suspected I’d get. Dismissal and denial and shrugging of shoulders because it ain’t affecting you.
…those are two completely different cites? What was the point of posting the first one when it didn’t back up the claims that you made?
From your cite The CIAC policy differs from rules set up by USA Track and Field. Do you object to the USA Track and Field rules, which “mirror the International Olympic Committee regulations, are used at colleges in the U.S?”
Providing evidence for a claim that you’ve made isn’t “bending over backwards.” This board is all about fighting ignorance. It isn’t our job to do your legwork.
Why does everyone have to be so hung up on race? Why do we care what colour someone’s skin is, why can’t we all just be people? Why do people keep making a fuss about this? (Why did anyone object to Rachel Dolezal, why should anyone care whether she feels like she’s black or not?)
I’m hoping you know the answer to that question. I’m all in favour of a world where people are treated equally, but we don’t live in it yet. We live in a world where there are more male MPs in parliament right now than there have ever been female MPs. Where only 5% of Fortune 500 CEOs are women.
But women don’t just suffer from sexism, but are affected by issues men can comfortably choose to ignore: abortion access, maternity leave, lack of child care provision, sexual harassment and sexual violence. Plus more mundane things like the tampon tax. Having people who are personally affected in a position of power helps ensure these issues are not overlooked or ignored.
I don’t care if people around me want to dress in a way they feel comfortable, wear make-up or not, or fuck anyone who consents. But, given they live in a world where men and women are treated differently, trans people naturally want to be treated in accordance with their preferred gender. From pronouns, to which locker room they use, to being able to join single-gender support groups, to entry into rape crisis centres and women’s shelters. The last two are particularly problematic as having someone with a penis there can trigger women, or make them feel unsafe, thereby hindering the shelter in performing it’s function. Here is a particularly egregious example of trans activism:
Yes, I understand it. Size is not the only difference noted in that article.
You’re still not showing that male and female brains are sexed. I don’t think you understand how weak it is to use tendencies to infer anything like that.
Men tend to be taller than women. Women tend to have a higher body fat % than men. Men tend to have denser bones than women.
These are all tendencies. But tendencies in general have limited predictive value. Given the wide variability that exists within the sexes, you can find, for example, plenty of women who are taller than plenty of men. You might be able to guess the sex of a unknown person if I told you they were 6’5 or 5’2, but you wouldn’t be able to do that very accurately if I gave you more average heights.
This is because height doesn’t determine sex. It’s influenced by it, but it is not a property exclusive to one sex vs another. Uterus, ovaries, and vagina are exclusive to one sex. Females don’t tend to have these organs; they are females because they have these organs.
If we haven’t yet found a quality in the brain that aligns as closely with sex as primary sex characteristics do, it is unlikely we will ever find one. Cis males with brains indistinguishable to cis women can’t be handwaved away, and we see lots of those.
…those are two completely different cites? What was the point of posting the first one when it didn’t back up the claims that you made?
The point was to describe the lawsuit and ACLU’s position on it. As some basic reading comprehension would have shown. Why are you so hung up something so trivial?
From your cite The CIAC policy differs from rules set up by USA Track and Field. Do you object to the USA Track and Field rules, which “mirror the International Olympic Committee regulations, are used at colleges in the U.S?”
I made my position as clear as can be in my first post to this thread. I don’t believe trans women should play against women in women athletics. Hormone therapy doesn’t eliminate sex differences that give males an advantage over females.
Did you really edit that quote to throw in an ad hominem? I only noticed the edit because the new system show the updates live. I would be careful about doing stuff like that.
But my reading comprehension is fine thanks. You made a claim, provided a cite to back up that claim, I read the cite and it didn’t back up your claim, I merely asked you where in your cite did it back up your claim in case I missed it. And besides:
I think that its you who has treated a simple request for a cite as something that was “more than trivial.”
So that’s a “no” then.
In the case that you cited Bianca Stanescu circulated a petition that asked that the “state legislature to require athletes to compete in sports based on their gender at birth, unless the athlete has undergone hormone therapy” So the position that you hold here is more extreme than the petitioners from the case you cited. Gotcha.
You claim that “Hormone therapy doesn’t eliminate sex differences that give males an advantage over females”. Now firstly trans-women are women, but if you are hung up on that particular terminology then don’t you think it would be more accurate to say "Hormone therapy doesn’t eliminate sex differences that give trans-women an advantage over cisgender women.? Is that what you meant to say?
And is this the way it actually plays out in real life? The places that have adopted the USA Track and Field rules, which mirror the International Olympic Committee regulations and are used at colleges in the U.S, are trans-women competing in those organizations regularly breaking records, regularly winning races, and they have an advantage over cisgender women?
Here’s some more examples of transgender athletes winning at sports:
All transwomen. Is anyone here claiming that hormone levels are the only difference between male and female athletes? Does anyone believe a female athlete taking testosterone would be able to beat the top male athletes?
As I mentioned earlier, countries like East Germany gave their female athletes male hormones, yet their times/distances etc were still below comparable male ones.
So the women born without these organs aren’t women? You can’t just hand-wave away anyone- millions of people globally- who doesn’t 100% fit in the male-with-male genitals/female with female genitals boxes, but still claim your definitions are reality.
Biology is useful as a guideline, but it’s not the be-all-end-all of gender or sex.
…if in doubt, deploy the strawman. Has anybody argued that “a female athlete taking testosterone would be able to beat the top male athletes?”
That article provided only 4 examples. One of those examples (that we just finished talking about) didn’t compete under the same eligibility requirements as what is standard for USA Track and Field, and in the case of CeCe Tefler yeah, she won an event, but she also only placed sixth in another and didn’t qualify for the final in the third. And June Eastwood crossed the line at exactly the same time as her teammate (whom she came second to in two previous races).
The same cases keep getting cherry picked over and over again. But I think the IOC regulations are pretty sensible. Transgender athletes have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004. A handful of trans women winning a handful of mid-level events is just a statistically probable thing to happen, that’s all.
Do you think this is a problem? I really don’t. I expect that in the coming decades, gender is going to be a lot more fluid and experimental than it is now.
In the case that you cited Bianca Stanescu circulated a petition that asked that the “state legislature to require athletes to compete in sports based on their gender at birth, unless the athlete has undergone hormone therapy ” So the position that you hold here is more extreme than the petitioners from the case you cited. Gotcha.
Yes. I happen to have a different opinion than someone else that was mentioned in an article that I cited. And the point you are making is?
You claim that “Hormone therapy doesn’t eliminate sex differences that give males an advantage over females”. Now firstly trans-women are women, but if you are hung up on that particular terminology then don’t you think it would be more accurate to say "Hormone therapy doesn’t eliminate sex differences that give trans-women an advantage over cisgender women .? Is that what you meant to say?
Nope, I meant what I said. Women are adult human females. That is how I define the word “woman”. Until someone provides a superior definition to Merriam-Webster’s, I will continue to use the term that has always been used to refer to my demographic group. I have yet to see a definition that covers trans women that doesn’t rely on circularity and gender stereotypes.
Cisgender presumes that there is such thing as gender identity—a concept that has not been proven to exist universally.
And is this the way it actually plays out in real life? The places that have adopted the USA Track and Field rules, which mirror the International Olympic Committee regulations and are used at colleges in the U.S, are trans-women competing in those organizations regularly breaking records, regularly winning races, and they have an advantage over cisgender women?
It doesn’t matter if they are winning all the races. They are winning plenty, but even if they weren’t, including male athletes with females—based on gender identity rather than the sex of their bodies—violates the whole intent behind sex-segregated sports. Females have the right to play against females, and that isn’t being respected.
So the women born without these organs aren’t women? You can’t just hand-wave away anyone- millions of people globally- who doesn’t 100% fit in the male-with-male genitals/female with female genitals boxes, but still claim your definitions are reality.
How many females are born with absolutely no female anatomy and no sex chromosomes to tell us what should’ve been there, had development occurred normally?
…the point I was making was the point that I said. You hold more extreme views than one of the people that bought the suit in the case that you cited. That’s important because (by and large) I don’t think I’m that far apart from Stanescu’s opinion. However I’m very far apart from your opinion. I think that matters, and worth pointing out.
Your cite doesn’t exclude trans women from the definition of women. And the definition of female also doesn’t exclude trans women from the definition from female. So according to your cite trans women are women, and women have the right to play against women, and that is being respected.
Oh, right, so we’re on to what should be there now, now what is there?
That’s how we detect sex through chromosomes. I mean, when my daughters were found to be female at 10 weeks gestation, it wasn’t because the doctor could see their uteruses.
I’m not YWTF, but I think in the case of ambiguious/missing organs, she’d default to chromosomes.
And in the case where chromosomes are ambiguious, she’d be fine with letting that individual develop however they are inclined to develop and then assess their gender based on presentation.
The vast majority of transfolks aren’t unisex, though. I think intersex folks don’t challenge the “gender is biological” framework at all. They just highlight that biology isn’t black and white and that we need to be flexible. But that doesn’t mean we need to be infinitely flexible.
Personally, I think there would be less controversy over transgenderism if we embraced the use of four gender boxes rather than two. Cis male, cis female, trans male, trans female. Anyone who switches from their “cis” gender, whether permanently or whenever the mood hits, gets one of the “trans” boxes. Then keep it moving. Require unisex restrooms and dressing facilities and keep it moving. Create sports leagues that are consistent with these gender boxes and keep it the moving. Cuz I don’t think we’ll ever get everyone to agree that a biological male who claims a female identity has the same gender as the cis woman.
While a lot of progressives say they believe the two have the same gender, that belief doesn’t stand up to scrutiny when in practice one is always given the “woman” label by default and the other isn’t. I’ve never heard a criminal suspect on the news described as “5’4” individual with large breasts and a figure suggesting they possess reproductive organs capable of carrying a fetus, gender unknown". No, we will call that person a “woman”. I’ve heard my two very socially progressive trans ally friends give the 'woman" appellation to folks they don’t know to identify as “woman”. They do the same thing that I do; they look at the visual cues a person has-- including biology–to make a gender classification. I don’t see the point of us acting like this is a regressive practice. We can be flexible without acting like gender is nebulous, subjective, and undefineable.
If it’s all genes, why bring up uteruses in the first place? The fact is that there isn’t one simple biological definition of ‘female’ or ‘male’, there are always going to be fuzzy edges. Given that it’s not a clear-cut simple binary, claiming that biology is definitive and using that as a weapon against allowing trans people equal rights is pretty objectionable.
There’d be less controversy among cis people who have an issue with trans people if trans people were shoved in another separate (but equal, I’m sure) box, but I doubt it would go anywhere near solving the issue from the point of view of trans people. Personally, I think forcing trans people to put themselves in a box which is simply there for the purpose of allowing others to class them as not a real man/woman isn’t a solution, and doesn’t make it better for anyone.
I definitely fall on the side of lowering barriers; allow fluidity and self-determination and quit worrying so much about what boxes other people are in, in the longer term, stopping worrying so much about gender can only help equality.
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