J K Rowling and the trans furore

Agree with all of this.

Right now, the average person is finding out that trans advocacy looks like book burnings, death threats, and rape rhetoric.

Trans allies are very soon gonna have to make a decision: 1) start questioning whether benevolent forces are really driving this movement and withdrawing support or 2) continue to do the bidding of these forces by staying in denial about the harm on the horizon.

I do feel like we are sitting on a powder keg.

What forces are really driving this?

Misogyny and homophobia.

Directed by who?

Misogynistic homophobes don’t need to be directed by anyone except themselves. Those in a position of power and influence are constantly looking for opportunities to advance their agendas. They found one with the transgender movement.

Thanks for answering, I agree that unisex spaces aren’t an immediate solution, but it seems to me that if we change building codes to mandate unisex spaces we would very soon have a solution that IMO is most fair to everyone.

IMO, it’s pretty easy to tell that a butch lesbian is a woman. Is Tig Notaro a butch lesbian? I mean, I suppose so…she still looks like a woman to me. If she had facial hair, she would look like a woman with facial hair. I doubt that someone who looks like her has been asked to prove that she belongs in the women’s locker room.

Actually, I’d be fine with it…granted I don’t speak for all women, but that’s sincerely how I feel.

It may be polite to say that once a person transitions that their appearance is indistinguishable from any other man or woman, but oftentimes that isn’t the case. A lot of times, you can tell that a person is transgender even after hormone therapy and surgery. An obvious example is Caitlyn Jenner. Even if Caitlyn Jenner hadn’t been famous before transitioning, most everybody would be able to tell that she’s transgender. And she’s a person with access to make-up artists, Hollywood hair stylists, expensive custom-tailored clothing, and any surgery she wants…most transgendered people can’t afford all of that.

Of course, Bruce was a big, muscular guy so it’s going to be much harder for them to pass as opposed to a tiny man like Christian Siriano. But even with tiny guys, their maleness somehow is visible even after they transition…not all the time of course, but a lot of the time…often, you can look at someone and see that they’ve transitioned. So for me, a transman with a thick beard, double mastectomy, chest hair and a deep voice in the women’s locker room would probably register as a female and I would not percieve them as a threat in the same way that I would perceive a male in the locker room as a threat. The reason is because in my experience, I don’t have to fear females and I don’t have to be cautious around females in the way that I have to fear and be cautious around males.

Why not? Why can’t a feminine looking male use a male locker room? I guess because of the risk of male violence. I don’t mean to come across as though I’m picking apart your post, but I’ve seen this idea expressed in this thread several times and I don’t understand why this risk to transwomen is considered to be more serious/important than the risk male predators pose to women.

Transwomen who are on hormone therapy and have fully transitioned are still usually stronger than women. If that weren’t the case, there wouldn’t be a strong argument to exclude them from women’s sports. Therefore, a transwoman has a greater chance of fighting off a male predator than a woman does. So why should transwomen be allowed access to women’s spaces due to the fear of male violence when those transwomen have a greater likelihood of overcoming their male attacker than women do?

Male violence against women and transwomen is equally awful and we should work to prevent both types of violence, but if we’re going to say that one group instead of another has to increase their risk of violence, why shouldn’t it be the people with better a chance of fighting off their attacker and escaping?

Honestly, I think that unisex spaces are the solution that will prevent harm to the most amount of people.

Well, maybe it’s because a feminine looking transwoman would be entering a space that’s 99% men 1% transwomen every single time they use a public space for the rest of their lives, while a cis-woman would be using spaces that are 99% cis-women 1% transwomen.

The (unproven) claim is that some of the men would use the law as cover to enter the women’s room to commit assault, but we are asked to happily force feminine looking transwomen into the spaces those predators are supposed to be in, where ALL the male predators go to take a leak or change clothes. This transwoman won’t have the rotten luck to happen upon a male predator on the day and time he summons up the courage to sneak into a women’s locker room, she’ll be deliberately going to the place he always uses to dress, even when he’s not planning a rape.

I actually wasn’t thinking of the risk in this case–the benefit of my male privilege I guess. It’s more that someone who looks like a typical woman in the men’s locker room would make people uncomfortable for a variety of reasons. But now that I think about it, I do think there could be risk to her from the men in the locker room. If there are 20-30 men in there, chances are there’s going to be at least one creep who is going to cause problems for her, if nothing else by leering at her.

It’s my feeling that a sincere transwoman is not going to have the typical male-aggressiveness or risk level, especially if there has been some medical transition. If someone has truly been living as a woman for years and is on hormones, I’m not sure they are going to act like a typical man when it comes to sexual aggression. We’ve had several news articles posted here about transwomen being aggressive, but it would be interesting to look into those to see if they were on hormone therapy and for how long. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone who wasn’t on hormones or just came out as a transwoman is still exhibiting typical male aggression.

What law are you talking about?

Men are already preying on women in women’s spaces. Sometimes they put on a wig and a dress. Sometimes they do not. Much evidence of this has been provided here of this. You’ve chosen to ignore this evidence.

It is undeniable that if we treat any male who is in a women’s space as a woman-unless-otherwise-specified, then the male predators who already fucking exist in women’s spaces will rejoice. Because they will no longer have to put on a wig or a dress. They will no longer have to wait for the room to be empty so that they can scurry into stall without anyone seeing them. They can walk into the joint just like any woman would and look the occupants right in the eye and smile as those occupants squirm under their gaze, since everyone in that room will know if they scream or run out of the room, they will be condemned as hateful Karens. But if they carry on like there’s nothing unusual, then they will be the male predator’s latest victim. The predators win regardless.

You and people like you don’t give a fuck about this because you’ve likely never been the victim of a sex crime and had people blame you for it. You’ve likely never had someone accuse you of being a dumb bitch for being too trusting, too oblivious, too immodest, or too meek or weak. You don’t have to worry about someone calling you a hateful Karen. So you can afford to dismiss this concern because it is one you never have to worry about. No one is telling you that your personal safety isn’t as important as the safety of someone else. But that’s what you and people like you are telling me when I say I don’t want the women’s restroom to be turned into a safe space for males.

Is this happening in the places that already have protections for transwomen?

The part in bold is a rose-tinted assumption. To believe this frequency, you have to take it on faith no man would abuse gender affirmative policies. We already have data that tells us this faith is misguided.

One in 50 male prisoners in the UK identify as trans. So knowing this, we can only draw one of two conclusions:

  • transwomen have an much higher rate of criminal offending relative to non-trans people, OR

  • male prisoners are highly motivated to identify as trans when they can obtain privileges they otherwise wouldn’t (like housing in the female estate)

Both possibilities undermine support for gender affirmative policies in exactly the same way.

  • If the first is true, women’s fear is more than justified; their exposure to harm will increase if sexual offenders that would’ve otherwise been excluded from their safe spaces are now given claim rights

  • If the second is true, women’s fear is more than justified; allowing opportunistic predators easy access into their safe spaces will increase their exposure to sexual offenders.

We’ve had people in this thread say that it would be wrong for a woman to report a male in a women’s restroom who isn’t doing anything demonstrably wrong. So I have every reason to believe that this is happening. But I don’t know what kind of “proof” you want me to show. I’m not going to be able to find news articles about this because I’m talking about social judgment. I’m not going to be able to find an article with the headline “Hateful Karen Screamed At a Male Using the Women’s Restroom.” Just like I’m not going to be able to find a headline like “Dumb Bitch Gets Raped in a Dimly Lit Parking Deck Like We All Knew That Bitch Would”. But I know this sentiment is widespread since this is the kind of shitty society we live in.

We live in the kind of society where women are blamed for every problem and are expected to shoulder the costs of those problems. Violence against transwomen is just one example.

Yes it is. I’m quite tired of posting these stories and having them treated like lightening strikes, but here is one more:

The complaint alleges the girl was assaulted in the girl‘s bathroom at Oakhurst Elementary School by a student who identified as “gender fluid.”

You will not hear about every single instance of these kinds of crimes, @Cheesesteak. We only hear about the ones the media decides to cover.

I’ll also add that if gender affirmative policies get heavily pushed, it would be more logical for women to feel safer in men’s room than the women’s. Why?

Because nonpredatory men overwhelmingly are found in the men’s room. This is the case now and it would certainly be the case if policies changed. Most men don’t want to encroach upon women’s privacy, and they would feel guilty at the prospect of making a woman fearful. Most don’t hang out in the john, lying in wait for an victim to pounce on. They are sticking with social norms and feel absolutely no need to transgress boundaries.

If predators are present among them, they are outnumbered by good guys capable of a fair fight. This is a deterrent.

Gender affirmative policies will entice male predators away from men’s rooms into women’s. Those that have an itching to transgress boundaries will be given a pass to do so, leaving behind the men who don’t.

It should be noted that @Cheesesteak is treating it as fact that transwomen are at risk in men’s rooms. Yet not one article has been cited to support this.

I’d be tired as well if my claim that 70 million American women are currently at dire risk of sexual assault by transgender protection laws was supported by only a handful of actual incidents.

Yes, just like I said. Lightening strike bullshit again, even when its kindergartners who are the victims.

What I’m seeing in this thread is so scary. I fucking don’t know what to do anymore.

@Cheesesteak, I’m gonna axe you to look at this the way I’m looking at.

Say we enshrine gender affirmation into law and make it a fundamental human right. Males will be entitled to use women’s spaces without having to justify themselves to anyone, because questioning whether they are really a woman will be legally equated with denying them a fundamental human right. My fear is that this will turn women’s spaces into a garbage can. You will have both ciswomen and transwomen being stuck with males who have nefarious intentions, and there will be no way to get rid of them without incurring the wrath of someone’s lawyer.

“How dare you deny my client’s right to gender affirmation! Sure, they are masculine and male. Sure, they have a big “M” stamped on their driver’s license. And sure, they have a masculine name and go by “their/them” pronouns rather than feminine pronouns, at least for this legal proceeding. And sure, they were spending an inordinate amount of time using the facilities and may have made awkward eye contact with some of the women as they entered the room. But they are just as entitled to use the women’s restroom as anyone else. This right supersedes some stuck-up Karen’s sense of entitlement over not being stared at while she washes her hands, your Honor. I intend to show the court that the defendent denied my client of their civil rights by barring my client from using the women’s restroom on the date in question.”

You may not think this will happen. I have no idea if it will happen. Maybe it won’t. But I don’t know how we prevent it from happening in a society where gender affirmation is considered a human right and simultaneously gender is a completely subjective concept where self-identification supersedes biology.

In a society where gender affirmation is considered a human right, is it problematic to have a sausage fest in the women’s restroom? If it is, how do we fix it without denying human rights to anyone?"

The problem from where I sit is that we can’t say something is a fundamental human right and then backpaddle on that when problems arise. We can’t caveat human rights. If a feminine transwomen is entitled to use the women’s restroom, why shouldn’t the masculine transwomen be entitled? And if the masculine transwomen is entitled, why shouldn’t entitlement be presumed for any masculine male?

All of this may seem like a paranoia-infused, fevered slippery slope argument, but I don’t think it is if we keep in mind that safety is the sole purpose of women’s spaces. Safe spaces require enforcement. I really do not know how we keep these places safe spaces for women, when “women” can literally mean anything.

They think this won’t happen because reasons.

@Cheesesteak hasn’t engaged the article on the shelter @DemonTree shared. Why is that? You’d think a firsthand account of someone who routinely watches men exploit gender affirmative policies would carry some weight.

Here is another account, this one from a former bouncer. Here’s what he says:

As a security guard in the UK I worked the doors at clubs & nightclubs for years. I quit the job in 2011. I got sick of dragging abusive men from women’s toilets who insisted they were “trans” & had a right to be there & who then reported us for discrimination. We rescued many girls/women from assault & voyeurism by these men. I could see where it was all headed. Now I’m told by friends still working in the industry that they’re no longer allowed to evict these men from women’s toilets. Much of their time is now spent trying to make sure girls/women come to no harm, but they can’t be everywhere. It’s an impossible job. I’m glad I’m out of it. So here I am-A man with first hand experience of what lengths predatory men will go to to access women in spaces where they’re undressed & vulnerable.

Does @Cheesesteak have work experience in settings where keeping women safe from predatory males is part of the job duties? Does he have experience living in a female body, being creeped on and harassed by strange men? I suspect no to both questions. So I’m very concerned he continues to dismiss the concerns we are raising, when people with direct experience are saying these concerns are valid. The UK prison stats also say they are valid. News reports say they are valid. Common sense says they are valid. Our own experiences as women says they are valid.

But absolutely none of this seems to matter to him. I just can’t.

The issue of gender-segregated restrooms is really a design problem, not an identity problem or an existential problem.

This recent episode of 99 percent invisible goes into the history of restroom design and solutions that people have put on the table.

The restroom problem is one we can just choose not to have.