I’m not trying to start a whole new other fight, but if dead-naming is an issue in the trans community, is there some element of dead-gendering that plays a role in the promotion of these new conventions of language/terms?
It’s called misgendering. ‘Born female’ and ‘born male’ are also verboten, the approved terms are ‘assigned female at birth’ (afab) and ‘assigned male at birth’ (amab). This terminology is copied from intersex people, who really are (or used to be) assigned to one sex or the other by doctors after being born with ambiguous genitalia.
It’s a new paradigm, basically. Instead of someone unhappy with their original sex who transitions to become the other, the idea now is that they were really female/male all along and the doctors got it wrong. And no physical changes are or should be required to recognise someone as the sex they identify with. Caitlyn Jenner was as much a woman in 1976 as in 2020.
Which is why Rowling is insisting sex is real. Because they are trying to say it’s irrelevant.
There probably is. But I don’t know why the rest of us have to cater to it when effective communication is on the line.
There are plenty of people–males and females–who don’t know the names of their internal body parts. “Individuals with cervixes” grabs the attention only of people who know they have cervixes. But everyone knows whether they have male or female bodies. And if they don’t know, they’re fooling themselves.
If “dead-gendering” is an actual thing, it’s a dangerous thing. It only highlights the importance of JRK’s “sex is real” remark. Trans folks can act like their old bodies have died all they want, but it is bad for the rest of us to indulge them. It is neither courteous or kind to tell someone they are male when they’re full of female parts that need to be screened on a regular basis.
I think there’s something to this. What deadnaming and misgendering have in common is a refusal to accept reality for what it is. Being reminded of reality is upsetting because psychologically there is a lot which rides on not believing reality.
A couple of years ago, Always announced its intention to remove the Venus symbol from its menstrual pad packaging because of complaints of transphobia from transmen. This represented the first time I took a hard look at the gender discourse, because I simply could not figure out how marketing this product to members of the female sex class could be offensive to anyone. When I read what transmen were saying online, my eyes opened. Many of them have internalized so much disgust towards their female bodies that every month they have to imagine themselves as macho combat soldiers bleedIng from battle wounds to manage their emotions.
I hope you agree that this is delusional thinking.
I guess this thread has driven off anybody who would likely address whether “dead-gendering” is a thing, or the utility of dropping one prefix for another. Hell, I’d like to hear a response from a trans-person about whether “person with a cervix/prostate” makes them feel included. It seems to me that the loudest voices tend to be (non-trans) trans activists. That said, I’m sure it’s a hard conversation to have, especially when nobody can claim to be the authoritative voice for the trans-community, let alone explain what’s driving associated emerging terminologies.
It strikes me that way yes. I’m trying to leave the door open for a non-delusional explanation. Hence what may appear to some my somewhat naive sounding recent questions.
Probably what these parents are teaching their kid:
“We have taught Zoomer about their own body without using boy-girl labels. Zoomer understands that some girls have penises and some boys have vulvas, and some intersex kids have vulvas and testes. Zoomer knows some daddies get pregnant and some nonbinary parents are called Zazas.”
I do hope Zoomer gives them hell as he grows up. If only for the name “Zoomer” alone.
I follow a few trans folks on Twitter who think these language games are extremely problematic. There is a lot of diversity of opinions within the actual community, but only the most exteme and vocal are whom allies seem to defer to.
TRAs very often are not trans but they routinely put words in the community’s mouth in interviews and on Twitter. They are the ones I’m most concerned about because they seem determined to exploit gender ideology to advance an agenda steeped in misogyny and homophobia.
I wish there were trans folks who were brave enough to be spokespeople for the cause. Not activists shouting into bullhorns, but folks who can calmly and thoughtfully answer the questions that have brought up. Because I don’t think all the questions we have asked are that unreasonable. I understand that they can make people uncomfortable, but we’re adults. We can deal with some discomfort if it means understanding things better.
The ways “male” and “female” are being handled in this discourse has me deeply concerned. I really do hope one day someone with some authority and influence will speak to this worry and assure me that not all of our gender/sex terms are going to be turned into feelgood pap. We can modify language. But we shouldn’t be modifying language just because a super small minority says it would please them.The rest of us should have some say over how we describe ourselves and our bodies.
Errm, are you confused as to who objects to “people who menstruate”?
Here’s a much earlier post from @Kimstu about the ‘people who menstruate’ issue, which might help you understand the reasoning a bit better:
Brave enough to be dismissed e.g. by have their past suicide attempts openly belittled, you mean? That kind of brave? Naah, I can see why they would stay way away from this thread.
It’s not just the terms, but the concepts themselves. It seems like we are on our way towards men/women/male/female being meaningless. Consider this group of people:
Are they men, women, a mix of both, none of the above? Who knows? It just depends on how they self-identify. If all 4 of these people can be a woman because they self-identify as a woman, what does it even mean to identify as a woman? When we’re trying to decide how transwomen will fit into traditionally-female spaces, we have to consider that all 4 of these people may be transwomen.
Seconded. It’ll be funny if Zoomer rebels as a teenager by becoming extremely gender-conforming and stereotypical.
…they haven’t just been driven from the thread. They have been driven from the boards. And the reason why the loudest voices here have been (non-trans) trans activists is that do you really expect transgender people are going to be able to convince you that the way they live their lives is “non-delusional?” YWTF has just told you that she believes that fundamental beliefs of transgender people are a “refusal to accept reality for what it is.” She denies their reality and calls it delusional thinking. And it looks like you agree with her. If we did that about any other marginalised group you would get warned and banned. We don’t allow scientific racism here. But casual transphobia? Sure, why not?
It should come as no surprise that transgender people aren’t taking part in this thread, or these boards, any more.
If you genuinely want an answer to your question I would suggest opening a General Questions thread. Because this thread has been irrevocably poisoned.
Yes. I want to listen to spokespeople who aren’t going to lose their shit unless everything they hear is 100% validating. I want intelligent, thoughtful, normal people to be at the head of the trans movement. Not the cartoon characters that are running rampant on social media. Not people who threaten to commit suicide every time someone points out a truth they can’t handle. I don’t think that’s too much to ask, to be able to learn from someone who either isn’t completely unhinged or so fragile they can’t speak without an ally opening and closing their mouth for them.
And who the hell has belilttled suicide here? The only person belittling suicide is you, since you’re bringing it up to score points in a conversation about “individuals with cervixes” and “menstruators” of all fucking things. If diction is enough to make trans people off themselves, then we really are dealing with a profoundly mentally unwell population–one that has no business dictating to the rest of us or influencing a single policy decision. Is that really how you want to characterize the trans community? A bunch of borderlines who will kill themselves if they get any pushback on their ideas? Why, that isn’t concerning at all!
Everything I have proposed to address trans rights is 100% supportive of gender dysphorics living their best lives. But a gender dysphoric who wants to get the “female” designation needs to do something besides say “I am gender dsyphoric” for me to agree that they are female. This is not unreasonable. “Female” means something, goddammit. It doesn’t mean “whatever you say, queen”. It is a term with clinical, political, and legal significance. It is the term used to describe the 50% of humanity that has always gotten a raw deal in this world. The folks in this group should not have to worry about the ramifications of it being turned into a fucking clown car on top of all of the other things they have to put up with. Trans folks who are decent and intelligent will agree with me on this. The trans folks who can’t handle this are lost causes who likely don’t have anything going on in their lives except attacking JKR and calling women “Karens” on Reddit.
Seems like the difference between me and you is that you see this group as an innocent monolith. I’m capable of seeing that not all of the people in this group are righteous or reasonable. This is why I need a spokesperson who can walk me through what this community really wants. If you or anyone reading this can point me to someone who can speak as a representative, I would appreciate it.
Nobody in this thread has driven anyone from the boards. Your “all the people who disagree with me are bad people, and they should shut up because their opinions shouldn’t be allowed” schtick isn’t based in reality, and you’re not the spokesperson for trans people.
…yeah they have. Your DM’s may be empty, but mine are not. Transgender people aren’t going to be running to the person who posts pictures of transwomen and loudly yells “THEY ARE MEN!!!” to tell you that they aren’t going to post here any more.
A strawman, a misrepresentation, another “not based in reality crack” and another strawman all in a single sentence. Well done. That is impressive.
Just to make it clear: you are not the spokesperson for feminists, and it is amusing that earlier in the thread you implored people to “listen to women”, but the instant a woman (who has more experience with shelters than anyone else in this thread) posted the first thing you did was belittle her post. As always with you: its “believe women unless they disagree with you”.
As I said: the well here in this thread has been poisoned.