I don’t disagree that you sympathize with feminism, as least one strain of it. Feminism isn’t just one-deminsional. On the subject of gender, lib fems and gender critical rad fems hold diametrically opposite beliefs.
Men kill transwomen because of homophobia and toxic masculinity. Not because they see transwomen as a subset of women, but because men are socialized to see gender nonconforming men as inferior.
Men kill women because of misogyny and toxic masculinity. Not because of women’s gender identity but because men are socialized to see females as inferior.
The drivers behind the oppression of TW and women actually differs significantly. As a woman, I’ve never been concerned about a lover taking one look at my genitals and instantly flipping out on me. Transwomen worry about this all the time
Feminism is not the proper tool for addressing male-on-male violence. This is the great harm that comes with drawing false parallels between women and transwomen: the movement is too focused on making feminism be something it shouldn’t be. The real problem is toxic masculinity.
I can only speak about myself, but feminism was the overwhelmingly most important factor in helping me understand and address toxic masculinity and its impact on my own behavior and my own life. Incidentally, feminism also helped me better understand and accept homosexuality and transgender. Without feminism, I would be a much worse person - not just towards women, but also men.
Yes, but the primary purpose of feminism is not to help men be better men. The purpose is to liberate women. Liberation means not being reduced to gender roles and stereotypes that enable men to take power and opportunity away from us.
Toxic masculinity will never go away if men who are alienated by it simply call themselves women instead.
Agree with all of this. And while I’m far from an expert, in my experience, trans women with whom I’ve interacted with are far, far less likely to demonstrate toxic behavior than cis men. Probably half of the cis men I’ve known in my life behave toxically in some circumstances. Pretty much none of the trans women I’ve known have.
I’m glad you’re so very agreeable on the subject. But it’s not so much about what you’ve personally experienced about some men and some trans-people you personally have known. There have been plenty of cited examples of toxic trans and trans ally behavior in this thread. Nobody is saying that your personal experiences are not what you say. But frequently your arguments come down to: ‘Well, that’s not been my experience.’ Well, thanks for sharing, but that’s not an argument.
Lol. Did this get mentioned in the debate pet peeves thread that is going on? I think I saw it there but I’m not sure.
Exnay on the etpay eevepay.
This really is the best way to look at it. Instead of pretending that trans people ARE the gender they wish they were, it would be far more honest to consider them as a unique gender with some of the characteristics of both men and women. I don’t think that’s what transgender activists are after though.
Why do you say “far less likely” and “pretty much none”? It sounds like you’re holding out on some relevant information.
This doesn’t actually dispute anything I’ve said. Not sure what you’re arguing against. Bad trans people and trans allies exist in some non-zero number. Apologies if bringing up my personal experiences bothered you in any way.
Also, how would people talk about toxic masculinity without relying on personal experience at least partially? Twitter is personal experience, not statistics – saying “some random internet person said XXX” is no different than “this person I know said XXX”.
In my personal experience, all the cops I’ve ever met or whom have pulled me over have pretty much been very polite and professional. Do you know why I don’t offer that as a counterpoint to the argument that there exist a non-trivial number of racist or corrupt cops out there? Right. Because we know there exists a real problem within law enforcement. My personal experience with police is immaterial.
This thread has cited some real issues with trans-allies and trans-people. Responding with what is essentially, ‘Well, none that I’ve met’, seems like a very kind and non-confrontational dismissal of evidence to the contrary.
I thought this thread was more about JKR’s views about policies regarding gender and sex. If this is a thread about how bad trans people and trans allies are as a group (i.e. comparable to the toxicity of police culture), then it’s going in a direction I don’t really want to be a part of.
But I didn’t think that’s what I was responding to. Hopefully you’re wrong about what @YWTF was saying. That’s not what I thought she was saying.
Originally it was about the rather extreme reaction to JKR’s tweets and essays, as well as her views themselves. It really struck me as being similar to the abuse other women who are outspoken on feminist issues on the internet report receiving - always from men.
I feel like I’m saying one thing and you’re hearing another. It must be me.
This thread is 4300K+ posts long. It’s about a lot of things, not just JKR. Much of it seems to be about the toxicity of trans-politics where it overlaps misogyny and it’s implicit hostility towards women on some level. I didn’t recognize it as such when this conversation began but I’m seeing it in a new light. Which is not to say that all trans-people are hostile towards women. Just like not all cops are racists but some are enablers. We’re talking about the problems in what are otherwise well meaning organizations/communities/individuals.
YWTF appears to be saying, if I am correct, that trans-women are not free of male toxicity simply because they identify as women. And again, your response was to say, ‘Well, not among the trans-women I know.’
If it means anything, I didn’t take your comment as a direct dismissal of anything I said.
But @QuickSilver has a valid point about why repeated references to “that has not been my experience” can be exhausting, particularly when the person saying this is among the more privileged.
My personal belief is that we wouldn’t have transwomen attempting to shoehorn themselves into the female demographic group if men and transwomen weren’t so influenced by toxic masculinity. I mean, JKR has been threatened with “girl dick rape” thousands of time over. By whom? By people with “girl dicks”.
So we know toxic masculinity is a problem in the trans community; we’re seeing it online and whenever women protest for their rights. Women who register this outpouring of threatened violence as a distinctively male kind of thing are unlikely to be moved by someone saying “that has not been my experience”. But this kind of statement keeps popping up in this thread as if it means something.
Ha! I’ve felt the same way many times in this thread.
Hopefully this is another misinterpretation, because this just sounds horrible to me. Something like “I didn’t recognize the problem with black people until I heard from those victims of black crime…”.
These are just totally incomparable to me – toxic police culture and trans people as a group – and any such comparison strikes me as very close to, if not crossing the line of, bigotry.
Hopefully another misunderstanding.
I sure hope this is a huge misunderstanding. I’m not equating trans-people with racist cops. I’m saying that groups that ostensibly are well meaning (or at least I believe them to be) can have negative aspects, bad actors and enablers. I’m not in any way saying that they are equally bad. I just used cops as a striking analogy. I should have picked something less controversial.
You know what, lets not focus on the analogy that you don’t like. Instead perhaps you can acknowledge the issue with the rhetorical form you’ve repeatedly used that I and @YWTF have called out.