Really truly?
Never seen it. Never done it. That’s what towels are for.
What I’m trying to get at: do you think it’s okay for women not to want to get changed in front of men, and not to want to see men getting changed? Is that equivalent to not wanting to get changed with someone of a different race?
Every time @filmore posts about these free balling fellas in the locker room I chuckle, not gonna lie. The imagery is amusing even though I’m sure it’s unsettling for a guy. I can’t say I’ve seen anyone like this in the women’s. We all seem to be in a distracted state of “let me get my shit together and get out of here”. But maybe that’s just me.
@puzzlegal, I think those of us who have concerns are not worried about the trans folks who have been around for years. We’re worried about the new batch and the ones to come, because a lot of those trans folks will be indoctrinated by gender ideology, which posits that gender exists solely in the mind. Someone who believes this won’t necessarily care about hiding their penis, because they will be under the belief that only old school hateful robots link penises to gender. If the vagina-havers can parade around the women’s locker room, so should the penis-havers. I don’t want women’s spaces to be a place where penises can be waved and the women using those spaces can’t say anything negative about it lest they want to be called transphobic TERFs. I understand that this is not happening in a widespread way right now. But I am concerned that people will not speak out if this does happen since they have already gone all in on TWAW, and once you go all in on something it is hard to reverse your thinking.
Here’s a story about a transman who was ejected from a gay sauna:
Now I actually sympathize a little bit with the transman here. I could see him thinking, “Hey, this place is for men. I’m a man. It says so on my ID. I have had top surgery. It’s also a place for gay men, so my genitalia should not be an issue here like it would be in a place for straight men.”
However, I’m know I would not have any sympathy for a transwoman with intact male anatomy using a lesbian sauna unless she was covered up. I guess it’s because while one exposed penis in the sauna seems like something “ignorable”, there is a point at which a critical number of them would change the nature of the place. Especially in the context of a sauna devoted to sexual orientation. A lesbian may be able to ignore a flacid penis in her presence. But should she have to pretend not to see an erect one? Multiple erect ones? And if we were talking about a sauna for women (not lesbians, but women in general), it is possible that girls would be in that space. Kids are not known for being able to ignore exposed adult genitals of the opposite sex (and it’s important that they do not learn this, for obvious reasons).
This is new territory and the social rules are being made up as we go. It strikes me as wrong to force girls who don’t want to use a sauna with a naked male into a “ghetto” locker room space, when the girls are females and thus should have priority for that space. It also strikes me as wrong since there’s no way to know whether the naked male using the women’s sauna is indeed a woman. They could be a transwoman who has lived for 10 years as a woman. Or they could be a rando male from off the street who just wants to be transgressive. A women’s space should not be a safe space for men, and that’s what happened in that Washington state case. Gender ideology does not give us a way to stop the women’s sauna from eventually turning into a sausage fest of a motley crew of males (trans, gender fluids, genderqueers, nonbinaries, and heterosexual male perverts). Gender ideology has made it so that lots of people think trying to prevent this situation is wrong, since who is anyone to question whether someone is really a woman? I think people are assuming it will be the long-suffering transwoman who will always be snared by questioning. I disagree. I don’t think the long-suffering transwomen are trying to push boundaries, so that question won’t be aimed at them. It’s the not-so-suffering transwomen, the ones who aren’t at all troubled that they don’t pass as female because they love their male bodies, but still want to be treated like a female for reasons–who need to be questioned.
I am not worried about transmen turning men’s spaces into taco fests because I think everyone gets (and thus sympathizes with) men who don’t want to be around exposed tacos (or breasts). But there is less empathy for women when it comes to penises in their midst. This has always been the case. People have a deep-seated belief that women are supposed to be able to rise above their feelings and discomfort around sex, whereas men–poor things–can’t help when they feel aroused so let’s be kind. Trans rights activism is happening against the backdrop of deeply entrenched sexism and misogyny, which is why I want to slow things down and hammer out social rules that are fair to cis women while still being respectful of trans folks. Seems like people are putting the tiny stigmatized minority’s feelings first, when I think they should be putting the much bigger stigmatized minority’s feelings first. I don’t like this.
Every now and then there’s an old guy wandering out fully naked, hairy and sweaty from a sauna. You rarely get the locker room scene from Crazy, Stupid, Love. Most guys wear a courtesy towel right up to the point of dressing.
@puzzlegal, curious about your thoughts on sports. This article just showed up on my Twitter feed.
TLDR snippets:
I didn’t instantly know I was trans but gender nonconformity made sense to me. I wanted to dress in a feminine manner but I’d always had such a deep sense of shame about it. I believed that everyone would hate me for stepping out of my masculine box and wearing dresses or makeup. Nevertheless, I knew deep down that this is who I am.
I went back to Manchester in June and had a few good sessions, but I crashed and injured myself pretty badly on our first group ride back. I’m still recovering from that injury now.
Then, in mid-August, I was asked to attend a meeting by video call, in which I was informed that I was no longer going to be part of the Great Britain Cycling Team. The reason I was given was that I no longer had the potential required to remain on the programme. There had been no indication prior to this that I was going to be dropped.
So now they’ve come out as a trans woman and intend to continue cycling, presumably in women’s cycling. This is an athlete who won a men’s title only last year.
Is forcing female athletes to compete against elite male athletes fair? Science says transwomen retain natural advantage after a year on estrogen.
Lucky you. My fitness club (back when we could go to such things) was full of old guys with their wangs out.
@YWTF is this real?
Surely it’s a parody?
It’s too ridiculous to be a parody.
Yes, i do think that’s okay for women to want to change away from the male gaze. (and for men to want to change away from women.) And yes, sex is obviously a bigger difference than race, and there are real biological differences between the sexes, and the percent of people who don’t fall nearly into one of the two major sexes is far lower than the number of people who don’t neatly for into “black” and “white” (or any small number of “races”).
But just saying “this makes a lot of people uncomfortable” is NOT an especially strong moral argument, imo, as it can and has been used to perpetuate a number of indignities against minorities.
I don’t think that genderfluid people should be allowed to switch back and forth between changing rooms (although in practice, there might be one room that is less disruptive in one setting, and a different one that is less disruptive in another.) And I don’t think that horny young men should be allowed to just declare themselves “a woman for the day”. I’m pretty sure that establishments can make reasonable rules that don’t require anyone to show ID to pee, too.
This is probably worth its own thread. Umm, topic.
First, I don’t think there’s anything “fair” about elite sports. Most of us have no chance of participating in elite sports under any circumstances, that’s what makes them elite. And the rules are already pretty weird and elite athletes cheat and violate those rules routinely. (Look at all the steroid scandals, etc.)
Second, unlike “public restrooms”, this is an issue that affects extremely few transpeople. Because of course most of them don’t make the cut for “elite” athletics in any way shape or form. And extremely few cispeople, too, of course.
So I don’t actually care a whole lot how the rules are set for elite sports. My gut feeling is that each sport should set its own rules based on its own needs and goals.
So, I think elementary school sports, which is about learning teamwork and learning the rules of the game, and where there’s little physical difference between the sexes, should either be unisex or let kids self-identify.
I think professional sports, where there’s lots of money on the line and it really matters what the spectators want, should be free to set rules based on sex assigned at birth as well as on measurable traits like height, weight, blood androgens, percent body fat, DNA, and frankly pretty much whatever else they want. If there’s a lucrative market for blond synchronized swimmers with blue eyes and D cups, I’m okay with that being a legal event that excludes a lot of people. And I look forward the the scandal involving colored contact lenses.
The hard question, imo, is high school sports, because on the one hand that is still moderately inclusive, and an important aspect of high school social life, but on the other, it’s often training for elite sports, and can be extremely competitive. I don’t have a good answer for that, and the best answer might vary by sport and even by school.
I’m not sure that men who may identify as women would not excel at sports. Take Bruce Jenner as an example. If someone like him is at their peak ability when they come out as a transwoman, should they be allowed to compete on the women’s team?
One difficulty with allowing sports to be decided on a case-by-case basis is that it can create unfair teams. If one school is very loose with their transgender requirements, they can end up with some very male-like transwomen athletes. Other schools which have tighter requirements would be at a disadvantage if they had more requirements on their transwomen competitors. If one school is “whatever you identify as” and the other school is “identify for X years plus hormone requirements”, then the first school is going to have some very powerful transwomen atheletes on the girls teams. Then to keep competition even, the more stringent school will have to loosen their requirements in order to have a competitive team.
do they have to “keep the competition even”? It’s already true that larger school have an advantage over smaller ones, and schools with an older age threshold to enter the system have an advantage, too. But… presumably they have goals for their sports program other than “win as many games against nearby towns as possible”. Goals like teamwork, camaraderie, physical education, exercise…
Like, maybe the varsity and JV and club sports have different rules, for instance.
I never claimed that people assigned male at birth who identify as female can’t do well at sports. What i claimed is that only a tiny fraction of the population will every qualify for “elite” sports, and a tiny fraction of the small population of trans people is going to be a small number of people.
Yes, trans women who transition after puberty will have advantages in many sports. (Although they will likely be too tall to excel in girls gymnastics, and not have enough subcutaneous fat to excel in long distance swimming. This is why each sport needs to think about its requirements and goals.)
But you know, if Jenner was in your high school, you weren’t going to be the best local athlete. Whichever team Jenner competed on. However hard you worked. Elite sports aren’t fair.
The law is: Nobody looks or notices OPD. I walk around pretending everybody is a Ken doll.
We don’t allow teens play Little League sports. Why? Surely the kids would still be able to learn team work and sportsmanship even if we let the occasional 13 year old play, right? Well we don’t permit this because we almost universally understand including teens would impact fairness, wreck entertainment value, and might cause a little kid or three to get hurt when trying to tag a bigger person. The teenager who feels entitled to play against kindergartens wouldn’t be celebrated. They would be regarded as a cheat and a loser because that’s what we generally regard people who violate the spirit of fair play.
Males have a natural advantage against females that is not that much different than what separates teens and small kids. It’s why feminists fought so hard for sex-segregated sports. I find the “all is fair in competitive sports” attitude extremely frustrating because sports is a huge source of opportunity, particular for low socioeconomic demographic groups. I believe a share of those opportunities should be reserved for the female half of the population who, through no fault of its own, is weaker and slower than the other half. Otherwise we are pitching into a system (through taxes) that we will not be proportionately benefiting from.
I simply cant be blasé about girls’ access to athletic scholarships, prestigious titles, Olympic medals, and professional careers. Elite or non elite.
Dontcha think that prestigious titles, Olympic medals and professional careers are always “elite”? I don’t really know how far down the stack scholarships go, so i won’t comment on those.
But did you read what i wrote? I don’t care very much if elite sports are unfair to transwomen because elite sports are intrinsically unfair, and only impact a tiny fraction of the population.
And realistically, maybe both transmen and transwomen should have to compete in the men’s division of most sports. Tough nuggies.
“People who produce sperm” and “people who menstruate” are not more inclusive than Men/Women. In fact, they are the complete opposite of inclusive. Will I stop being a woman when I stop menstruating? No. I will always be a woman. And I don’t want my group to be referenced by a biological function, like that’s all we’re good for. They could have at least said “people who produce eggs” to be parallel with “people who produce sperm”.
Ugh, I hope that thing is a joke.
My objection was to the rationale you expressed to @filmore. I think you are framing the issue in a head scratching way, even if you ultimately agree it’s not unfair to exclude transwomen from women’s sports.