It’s not cis women either. As a demographic, cis women aren’t big opponents of any and all trans rights. We (speaking for women that share views expressed here) just want some brakes to be pumped on the crazier aspects of gender ideology. I want transwomen to feel safe too. But I don’t want safety to be equated with “never having to feel awkward or weird.” A male-passing male-bodied “woman” might not enjoy changing with the guys, but this experience should not be given the same grativas as a woman feeling afraid to leave her changing stall because a male-passing male-bodied individual is spending an inordinate amount of time in their birthday suit near the lockers. Gender identity discussions are almost always about how people feel, and we are called upon to treat all expressed feelings as valid and real. Seems to me if we accept that talking about and respecting feelings is how we participate in the gender discourse, then we can’t just dismiss women’s fears of males. That gender dynamic is as old as dirt and it ain’t ever gonna go away, no matter how much the activists wish it would.
You’ve done a good job of listening, iiandyiiii. I don’t know if we’ve convinced you to have a more sympathetic view of JKR’s position, but I can tell you’ve at least tried to give our opinions a fair listening.
I’ll point out that JKR never said that trans women aren’t women. People jumped down her grill because they thought that was what she was saying. But her point was that women are erased when attempts to make language as trans-inclusive as possible creates the impression that menstruation is a equal opportunity bodily function. It’s false that men get periods, but gender ideologists want everyone to start thinking that. JKR is not wrong for criticizing this messaging.
This is an excellent point. If we had a society that treated men and women fairly and equally, and patriarchy was dead, and rape and sexual assault were both very rare and universally condemned and fully investigated, then I think the “gravitas” these two scenarios should be given would be the same. But we’re not even close to such a society.
I do have one caveat - and that caveat is that this hypothetical trans woman could be in serious danger to her life if she’s relegated to the men’s changing room, considering how our society treats trans people. That also needs to be taken into account. If she can’t go to the ladies room, then she needs somewhere safe to change. Without that safe place, it’s just as hard for me to judge her harshly for wanting to put herself in the safest place she can as it is for me to judge cis women for that reasonable concern and fear.
Thanks very much. This truly means a lot. My opinion of the specific things I called out from JKR’s writing hasn’t really changed, and I still suspect her knee jerk doubling down and refusal to even consider that some of her language might have been denigrating and erasing to trans women and teams men could be a sign of some unconscious negative feelings about trans people that she’s refusing to consider. But this discussion has definitely made me more sympathetic to the concerns brought up by the cis women on this thread. Thanks again.
If they are female-presenting and sufficiently female-passing that no one flinches when they step into the women’s restroom, they can keep peeing wherever they want to pee.
If they are not female-presenting, then they need to be prepared to be questioned when they pee in the women’s restroom. They need to be prepared to get hostile or frightened looks sometimes. They need to be prepared if some women react to their presence by doing a quick 180 at the door and just try to appreciate that at least no one will try to kill them when they’re in the women’s restroom like they will in the men’s restroom.
For the transwomen who can’t easily pass but who are at least “doing” women, I’m all for letting them pee in the women’s restroom. Because those women aren’t likely to trigger my fear response. But some other women probably feel differently. As long as those women aren’t outwardly hateful, then I don’t feel comfortable saying those women are wrong just for having those feelings. Maybe in another ten years when some of our more old-fashioned gender programming is no longer relevant, I’ll move to that position. But not now.
Is there any circumstance where you think a trans woman has a legitimate grievance over being questioned about being in a public restroom? Someone who does literally everything she can to communicate “woman” - long hair, a dress, a decade of hormones, facial feminization surgery, breast implants, bottom surgery, larynx shaving, and a voice coach - if someone “flinches” at sharing a restroom with this woman, is it okay to say maybe the problem is with the complainer?
Because there is no actual criteria for being trans—which means any male is eligible to be trans should he have the desire to be one—the “woman” concept is stretched beyond the point of usefulness if we posit that all trans women are women.
When you follow gender ideology down its rabbit hole, the inescapable conclusion is that woman = any person that wants to be a woman. This is unacceptably crazy to me. Is it to you?
The video of that Danish person I posted earlier. Are they are a trans woman? Or are they are just an asshole? I suspect they are just a provocateur, but I could be wrong. How could anyone know the truth? How could we know any trans person is genuine, really?
If determining who is real trans vs fake trans entirely hinges on trusting whether someone is being honest and accurate about their internal sense of gender, then maybe “trans women are women” is counterproductive rhetoric. It will be rejected by anyone who can readily spot fallacious reasoning. It will be rejected by anyone who is familiar with glitter beards and doesn’t appreciate being coerced into placing this group in the same category of human as their mother or themselves. It will be rejected by people who know that liars and assholes exist and that they are not always obvious in their fraud.
Yeah, and people are trying to change it to gender-designated bathrooms instead of biological sex-designated bathrooms in order to make some people feel safer than they do now. Not sure why that is funny
But there are criteria - seriousness, legitimacy, actual gender dysphoria, etc. That may not always be easy to determine at a glance, but it’s still real. I think it’s reasonable to establish some sort of process to verify this in those rare circumstances in which someone could endanger women by falsely claiming to be trans. But there would also need to be protections so that this process wasn’t abused to harm trans people.
And “cis women” still exists as a term to describe a specific grouping with its own serious concerns and challenges. Trans women aren’t cis women.
I thought I made myself clear that I think transwomen who are female-presenting should be left alone, even if they aren’t female-passing. I think other women are entitled to their feelings (including believing whatever they want about a person’s claim to “woman”). But I don’t think they should interrogate such a person or demand that person not be allowed to pee.
You seem only interested in restrooms. Can I ask why? We haven’t been talking about just restrooms here. That’s kind of the low-hanging fruit of the debate, along with pronoun usage.
How does this principle work for cis women who present according to masculine stereotypes? Do you similarly feel they need to be prepared to get hostile or frightened looks?
Earlier I wrote then erased a post about my own adolescence, when I had long hair and a mild voice and apparently presented to a lot of men like a girl. I got misgendered by strangers more often than I got correctly gendered. Mostly it was just irritating; on a few occasions, it was terrifying. Did I “need to be prepared to be questioned when” I used the men’s “restroom”? Did I “need to be prepared to get hostile or frightened looks sometimes”?
There’s been some pretty misdirected motive-guessing about dudes’ motives in this thread: men support transwomen because they want a way to take over women’s spaces, or some such. Uh, no. To the extent that I identify in this scenario with trans folks, it’s from the irritating-to-terrifying experiences of being misgendered in my youth. And I’m someone who doesn’t feel gender very strongly at all. For someone who feels it very strongly, I must imagine the experience being so much worse.
The trans community seems pretty adamant that dysphoria is not a requirement to be trans. In fact, some consider it offensive to associate it with being transgender.
The prevailing view also seems to be that trans are under no obligation to try to pass as the opposite sex. While many obviously do try, many resent being held to that kind of standard.
If the trans community has a much more lax interpretation of what makes someone trans than you do, will you discard your own concept of “real trans” in favor of theirs? Or will you go with what makes the most sense to you.
I too appreciate your openness to engage on this subject.
[quote=“monstro, post:1313, topic:855795”]
I thought I made myself clear that I think transwomen who are female-presenting should be left alone, even if they aren’t female-passing. [/quote]
Your previous post seemed to be going back on that, with the “so long as no one flinches” part, and the explicit inclusion of “female-passing” (and not just female-presenting) as a criteria for acceptance.
What do you think an appropriate reaction would be to someone who does interrogate such a person, or demands they not be allowed to use the facilities? Either from the person being interrogated, or by any bystanders who witness the interaction?
I don’t think that’s a remotely accurate characterization of my posts in this thread.
I don’t see transmen as female. They certainly don’t see themselves as female. Why do you?
I’ve had my fill of gender identity stuff.
It is fortunate that you do not suffer from gender dysphoria, then. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to declare that they are done with it.
I’m not trying to pretend these situations are simple. They are difficult, and nearly intractable. But transgender individuals have suffered, a lot. And it’s difficult to have sympathy for that while simultaneously declaring that no matter what they will never be enough of a man or woman to participate fully in society as same.
The thing is, no one wants women to feel threatened in safe spaces. But how do we keep those spaces safe without marginalizing transgender individuals? For those who agree with JKR, what’s their solution for trans people?
Why wouldn’t they need to be prepared for this? If no one can casually differentiate you from a male or female, and you’re in the women’s lockerroom, isn’t it unrealistic to not expect heads to turn?
This is the lose-lose talked about earlier. Women have their guard up pretty much every time they are out in public. They kind of have to, because getting caught off guard by a male out to cause harm has a poor prognosis for them. Women are trained to be wary around strange men especially when in vulnerable situations. You can’t expect them to just shut that wariness off when they are about to drop trou surrounded by strangers.
Because they are trans men. By definition, that makes them female.
20,000 years from now, when archeologists have nothing but our fossilized bones and dead cells to identify us, trans men will be recorded as female. They need to start preparing their ghost-selves for this now, so they aren’t surprised. Those pesky XX chromosomes don’t disappear just because they are undesired.
Not a requirement, but still an indicator (assuming it’s legitimate).
No, but it might complicate my view of how to ensure everyone’s safety in those rare but still real circumstances in which folks could be in danger of someone presents themselves falsely.
Feelings are elicited by someone’s gender presentation. I’m going a hazard a guess and say that this is due to deeply entrenched programming that is tied somehow to the dance we call sexual intercourse–a dance that has much higher stakes for females than males. Frequently gender presentation elicits happy/pleasant emotions. But sometimes it elicits a fear response–especially in females because of the higher stakes. So it seems to me it is asking a little too much to expect a gender nonconforming person to never elicit negative reactions from people. Especially female people. Dealing with other people’s emotions is essentially what all of us who have a gender identity must be prepared to do.
Now, I’m not saying all feelings need to be indulged and catered to. But there’s nothing inherently crazy about women flinching or reacting negatively to a male-ish form in their presence when they are in the super vulnerable position of nakedity. Doesn’t matter if that form is truly male or if it only appears that way out of the corner of one’s eye. Perhaps it’s something that’s engrained in our DNA or maybe that’s a cop-out and it’s only socialization. Regardless, the male-induced fear response is real. Masculine-looking women know it and manage somehow.
I’m not a masculine looking woman, but my outline is androgynous enough that I get mistaken for a dude when I’m out walking at night. A couple of times I have elicited fear in fellow women. I know because they act kind of like how I act when I see a male-ish form coming my way in the darkness. I’ve never gotten a hostile look (I usually avoid looking at people’s faces though), but I can tell when my presence has triggered a negative reaction. But this has never hurt my feelings. Cuz I get it.
Getting a hostile or frightened look is different than violence or hatred. It’s a reflexive response to someone who doesn’t immediately ping as a member of the sisterhood being in a space reserved for the sisterhood. If a woman were to act fearfully to a masculine woman in a staff meeting, let’s say, I would find that crazy and very messed-up because that isn’t a space reserved for women and women aren’t in a vulnerable position in that space. But if we’re talking about a situation where a woman is undressed in a locker room and she turns around to see what appears to be a dude walking towards her? No, I don’t blame her subconscious mind for informing her that danger is near. As long as her conscious mind takes hold and keeps her from doing something rash, then, no, I don’t have a problem with her face not hiding all of her emotions.
So I’m not about to judge people for not being able to maintain having sanguine, stoic faces at all the times, no matter the situation. I’m more concerned about ensuring that everyone has legal rights and safety than I am about policing people’s gender-based feelings.
Unfortunately, what we are now seeing is a concerted effort to abolish nuanced appraisals of this issue. It’s turned into an all or nothing thing. With “all” meaning you must accept that all transwomen have the same exact rights and privileges that women do with no exception. And “nothing” meaning you must be for throwing trans people into an incinerator. No middle ground is tolerated because it means treating trans women in a manner non-equivalent to women.