And the solution has to account for the fact that some perverts and predators will try to exploit any loophole which allows them this kind of access. We can’t assume that only well-intentioned and sincere trans people will make use of this kind of access.
And I want it to be acceptable for another woman to tell that person, “Please undress in a stall. We’ve got little girls walking up and through here, so please do try to be more modest.”
A decent person that is respectful of women’s negative feelings about adult penises in the presence of little girls will appreciate that they crossed a line by showing their penis in front of a little girl, and they will conform to this social convention without giving anyone any lip about it. A person who does not respect this is showing themselves to disinterested in the social conventions that have been adopted by woman/female gender class, and thus they should not be entitled to access women’s spaces. So in this way, I’m saying that anyone who says they are a woman and respects the codes of conduct that women have adopted to keep themselves and their children safe is a woman, even if she has male parts.
I’m coming into this discussion very late, and admit that I haven’t read all of the over 1,500 responses on this topic, so these may already have been covered, but I had a couple of fight my own ignorance type questions.
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Assuming that YFTW and others are correct that there are a bunch of perverted men, who will claim to be transgendered in order to have access to women’s bathrooms to oggle or molest them, why haven’t we seen reports of this being a regular occurrence in the many places that have legislated that trans women should be allowed to use women’s bathrooms? This fear seems to be based on a parade of horribles that not only aren’t guaranteed to happen with regularity, but have been shown to not happen with regularity.
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Among transgendered women who present as male, is there really a strong desire to use women’s restrooms? As a cis-male, the primary reason I use the men’s bathroom (aside from the fact that the line is always shorter) is the negative reaction I would get from others from using the “wrong” bathroom. I wouldn’t see it as a damaging my masculinity to use the woman’s room, just that it might cause a hassle. If I were a transgendered women who looked the same way that I do, I would imagine that I would still use the men’s restroom just to avoid it being an issue, without feeling that it affects my identity. Of course I’m not a transgendered woman, and so I can’t say for sure how I would actually feel, which is why I am asking for my ignorance to be fought on this issue.
First of all, Rowling’s affirmation of the reality of sex wsas NOT in response to the bit about “people who menstruate,” you’re conflating two different events.
Secondly, it’s interesting how often criticism of Rowling is based not on anything she actually wrote, but on people reading in whatever evil intentions justify the abuse.
There is this case which has gone to court:
It sounds like it doesn’t happen very often, but vague policies means that bad actors can take advantage and make it hard for management to deal with problem situations.
Buck_Godot, maybe you should read all the responses because you’re coming up in here with a bit of a strawman. The argument being posited isn’t just that perverted men will claim to be transwomen (which seems inevitable to me, but whatever). It’s also that allowing males to enter the women’s spaces makes it harder for women to protect themselves from perverted men. Because when males aren’t allowed at all in women’s spaces, women don’t have to worry about trying to winnow the male pervert from the nonpervert male. They can just pee or change and not have to be especially diligent about who is peeing and changing next to them. But make male occupants in women’s spaces a common enough reality and now women can’t just let their hair down when they are in a vulnerable position. They’ve now got to be on guard. And they’ve got to risk being humiliated and shamed if their “on guardness” is too noticeable to the woke crowd. “Oh Molly, what’s wrong with you, running out of here just because that woman with a penis startled you in the shower! It simply doesn’t matter at all that you’ve been sexually abused by men your whole life and penises are triggering to you. Get with the gender ideology program and embrace that woman dick, girl!”
That kind of response is what motivates me to keep posting in this thread. Lots of people (including some in here) keep belittling the very reason concern over dicks (literal and figurative) in women’s spaces just because they naively think males perverts have some weird code of conduct that keeps them from coming into women’s spaces. That attitude isn’t making me eager to climb on the gender ideology bandwagon.
The retort or slogan “sex is a real thing” is dishonest rhetoric regardless of whether it comes right after “people who menstruate” or not. People who are advocating for inclusive definitions of “woman/man” and “female/male” are not arguing that biological/anatomical sex differences don’t exist. The question isn’t whether biological/anatomical sex exists; the question is what the meaning of gender is in society.
So two posts ago the problem with her position was what she was replying to. But now, it doesn’t matter what she was replying to.
In fact, the notion male and female sexes aren’t a real thing is an idea rapidly gaining ground.
I’m of the same mind, except I would extend this thinking further upstream. If a person knows they will be perceived as male by most if not all of the locker room occupants, the most peaceable option would be to use the room reserved for males. A person who chooses the least peaceable option is communicating a sense of entitlement and disregard for boundaries that women have good reason to fear.
Can anyone spot what’s missing from this?
There you go again. This isn’t an honest debate. It’s like trying to have a conversation with an Apache attack helicopter meme.
Yes, I agree with this fully. That’s why I think male-presenting males especially are not entitled to sanguine female faces when they make the decision to enter women spaces. They need to expect hostile or frightful looks and not take those looks personally. They are natural flexes. Women should not have to swallow their own biological flexes (or be shamed over them) just because the gender ideologists have ruled that biology doesn’t matter.
The idea that sex is irrelevant and can and should be replaced by self-defined gender in any and every situation is rapidly gaining ground. I think that is what Rowling is pushing back on.
To add to Monstro’s suggested rules, I want to ensure it is possible, and not illegal or socially unacceptable, to gather data on crimes committed by trans women (and trans men) or other incidents that may be affected by changes in the law. Because right now I’m seeing campaigning for changes without thought of any problems they may cause, deliberately ignoring and trying to silence other people who may be affected, and that seek to make it as difficult as possible to find out if there are any negative consequences afterwards.
The stories are out there, but it’s not like they are just going to land in your lap. You have to actually, like, search the internets for them.
Here’s a story I came across recently.
The circumstances of this incident are exactly the shit that I’m talking about: A pervert using transgender as a “get out of trouble” card when caught in the women’s room. For all we know, he’d been in that restroom for a while, waiting for the right person to pounce on. And for all we know, women had seen him lurking around for hours but hadn’t reported him because they didn’t want to make a fuss. It was this climate that helped him offend.
This is a good point, Demon Tree.
If we see an uptick in male violence committed on women in women’s spaces and we present that evidence to a group of skeptics, will the point we’re making be appreciated and understood so substantive changes can be made? Or will we hear a response like this:
“All this evidence shows is that males are attacking women. We don’t know if these males are men or transwomen. They are more than likely men. It is almost certain they are men. Men have always attacked women. Men have always been prohibited from women’s spaces. So big rubber deal.”
It won’t matter to the woman who has been raped or sexually assaulted what gender pronouns her assaillant prefers. All that will matter to her is that she chose to ignore her gut when it told her there was a threat in her presence and now she’s paying for it. The folks who told her she was hysterical for worrying about this outcome won’t have to pay for it.
What I worry about is that these male offenders will be reported as women based on nothing except the perpetrator’s stated gender identity. Which means we’ll soon be seeing a rise in “female”-on-female crime, and everyone will have to pretend its because bunches of women have fallen into the wrong crowd.
I’d be willing to bet that the majority of us have shared bathrooms with trans people before, without ever being aware of it. And as people here have already pointed out, if you start making new rules about forcing trans people to use the bathrooms of the sex they were born with, it’s only going to make it EASIER for pervs, rather than harder.
Think about it. All some dude would have to do is walk into the ladys’ room and claim that he’s a FtM, and now he’s no longer allowed to use the mens’ room. What are people going to do, ask him to drop trou and prove it? 
How is it a new rule to expect people use the restroom of their biological sex?!
And your example is wack, Guin. No one is demanding that people drop trou. We are saying that if you’re in a women’s space and you aren’t female-presenting and you aren’t acting like a woman, then it should be socially acceptable for a woman who is in that space with you to 1) have a hostile or fearful facial expression and demeanor, 2) ask you to leave or be more modest, 3) hastily leave the room themselves, 4) register a complaint, and/or 5) do nothing at all.
No one will have to drop trou if we have reasonable social rules. Acting like we’re demanding people drop trou is completely distorting what we’re saying here.
Yes, that really would be nightmarish gaslighting.
“What do you mean, men are attacking you? Those aren’t men! They’re women, the same as you! Stop attacking yourself! Clean up your own house before you point the finger at us!”
-Men