I don’t see anyone saying they should be forced to pretend anything.
But I notice you agree it’s not just locker rooms being discussed.
You were the one saying you can’t have race-based safe spaces without it being hateful. I was pointing out that that’s not the case. That specific cite (which has more examples than just the festival) was more about the argument on whether it is hateful, not the specific space involved.
Now you say it’s just, what, spaces where people are naked? Doesn’t change my point. I would not see a Black-only gym, or a black-only sauna, as grounded in hate, for the reasons given in that article.
Have I said anything that makes you think I don’t think it’s OK to have different comfort levels about who sees what naked? In case it’s not clear, I think that’s perfectly OK. I don’t think you should have to accept everyone into every space, and I also think it’s OK to have AFAB cis-women spaces. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting those spaces, at all.
I do think other spaces can also be called “women’s spaces”. But that’s strictly an argument about the meaning of “women”
The bonus spaces which exist are typically just one space. In a store, there is just a single family restroom. And in a gym, there is a single room with a handicapped bathroom, shower, and a few lockers. Even though it’s possible that there could be multiple people who want to use the space at the same time, typically there’s just one person and there isn’t a backup. Given the low percentage of non-binary or gender conforming people, likely a single private space could function for all of the situations where it would be needed.
Because men have little to fear from women. Women have good reason to fear men. As a man, I feel if either sex has to put up with this, it should be mine. It is unfortunate the world is that way. but it is so.
People are espousing in this thread that women’s spaces function as a de facto mixed-sex space. My counter proposal is that we allow females to retain a single-sex space (because they are biologically more vulnerable than males) and have the men’s room officially (rather than de facto) become the mixed-sex space.
If genitals aren’t supposed to be a big deal, then men should be able to deal with the occasional transman (or even brave ciswoman) vagina without any issue. Men shouldn’t have any problem accomodating penis-having trans women in this space, either. If they do have a problem with it, then it certainly makes no sense to expect it to be easier for females to do so.
What exactly is your objection to this proposal? I don’t understand your comment about “less privacy”.
I would totally support this option for the reasons you specify. Men are generally not going to care as much, and they certainly aren’t going to have the same level of fear or vulnerability in this situation. It’s not uncommon for women to use the men’s room in concerts and stadiums when the women’s room has a very long line, and it’s typically a non-issue.
The sentence in bold reminds me of another concern that I haven’t brought up because it involves restrooms (and in general, I’m fairly indifferent to this space).
In some public settings, the demand for women’s toilets is almost always higher than the supply. So opening up access to trans women without increasing the number of stalls means those long lines are going to get longer. Female people don’t just have urination and defecation to manage; sometimes making it to the toilet in time means the difference between not having an OJ murder scene in your pants versus only having a few spots that can be ignored until you get home. Menstruation and miscarriages are biological realities that women are often forced to deal with in public restrooms, and this is underappreciated with all the focus on gender identity.
No, I know what I mean when I say third space. So I’m going to keep using “third space”, thankyouverymuch.
Women’s locker rooms are for people who have vulvas and don’t want want to see penises.
Men’s locker rooms are for people who have penises and don’t want to see vulvas.
Unisex locker rooms are for people who have any arrangement of genitalia who don’t mind seeing any arrangement of genitalia. They are the third space.
If gender isn’t a big deal like the gender ideologues keep insisting it isn’t, seems to me they should be pushing for spaces for folks who believe gender isn’t a big deal, which is a bigger population than trans folks. But instead, they are pushing people (especially women) to change the purpose of existing spaces, damn what people who already inhabit those spaces feel about it and why. And they want me to believe this is exactly like racial desegregation when it isn’t. The racial desegregation movement was about abolishing race-segregated restrooms and locker rooms (among many other things). It didn’t uphold them.
What trans rights folks want is as politically infeasiable as if black civil rights activists had fought for black people to have the right to use white restrooms while demanding those restrooms maintain their “white” label. I repeat for emphasis: The activists are not merely OK with the “white” label remaining despite all the black people being let inside the space. They are demanding those spaces still be called “white.” The logic being that as long as black folks get to use facilities that are explicitly for whites, only then will they feel like they are being treated equal to whites. When really, anyone with half a brain understands that true equality would be most exemplified in a setting completely blind to race.
If trans rights activists are serious about making others believe that gender isn’t a big deal, then they’re stepping all over their argument by promoting a system constructed around the “big dealness” of gender. They aren’t looking for reasonable accommodation for individuals with discordant mind and bodies. What they want is for others to treat such individuals exactly how society treats ciswomen and cismen. They don’t want a world where gender doesn’t matter, where there are no such thing as “men’s” and “women’s” spaces. Because in such a world they wouldn’t get the validation they are desparately seeking. They aren’t looking for rights. They are looking for validation.
When I lived in New Jersey, an associate of mine pointed out to me that there was a statute that mandated women-only resting areas in facilities of a certain size. A resting room had to be equipped with a couch or comfortable chair–something a woman could use if she was suffering from menstrual-related issues and in need of a rest. Sure enough, a lot of the women’s restrooms on campus had a small furnished ante room that you had to go through on your way to the toilets. Not all of them had this feature, but enough did so that if you needed to lay down, you always had somewhere to go.
So how does a set-up like this work in the world where obvious males have access to women’s spaces? If I’m having real bad cramps and I see a female-passing individual is occupying the couch I was going to use, then I won’t feel a certain way about going to another rest area. But if an obvious transwoman is using that couch, is it gauche for me to ask if I could use the couch? The couch that has been set aside for the reason I’m requesting it? Or could someone argue that doing this would not be fair, since I wouldn’t be treating them like a woman?
(My associate and I used to joke with each other about the gross “menstrual” couches that were on campus. They were old enough to look like they were from the 1950s and they looked exactly like how you would expect a "menstrual’ couch to look. I was fortunate that I had my own office and I could whip out my foldable lounge chair for those times when I needed to lay down.)
My point is that a male locker room provides little to no privacy for either transmen or trans women to change. Most of the locker rooms I’ve been in offer zero private stalls—everything’s out in the open. As men, we’ve just gotten used to it. I certainly wouldn’t want to be a trans male in such a space.
Have you been in a men’s change room? My experience is that there are usually zero private stalls (not that they couldn’t be constructed) and hence no privacy for a trans person who doesn’t want to change in front of others.
On the other side of the argument, I believe trans people don’t really want separate spaces. They don’t want to be “outed.” Providing a third or fourth space does exactly this. From the trans point of view, it seems to me, it’s about acceptance and blending in above all else.
This is an issue independent of trans issues. There are men who don’t like changing in front of other men. There will be some men who change clothes in the bathroom stall or will wear a towel while changing. Some men will wear their underwear in the shower. Some men will avoid the locker room altogether and instead choose to change clothes at home or in their car. I’m sure some of those men would feel more comfortable in the women’s locker room where there were no naked men, but we don’t really entertain the option of them using the women’s locker room for just general discomfort around naked men.
Maybe women’s restrooms should be made to be more like men’s restrooms then. If lack of privacy is the thing that keeps men’s restrooms from being a suitable mixed-use space, then maybe that’s how women’s restrooms should be designed as well.
Alternatively (and more reasonably), men’s restrooms/locker rooms could be designed to be more like women’s restrooms/locker rooms. Seems to me that men in general would prefer this design over the current “hanging out”. What do you think about that?
Once I ran into a men’s restroom when I really really had to go. I quickly exited when I saw there were no stall doors. So lack of privacy really is a thing in some men’s restrooms.
Men that I know tend to prefer standing up because it gets the job done quicker. All things being equal. I’m not saying you’re wrong; men’s spaces should be more inclusive and allow people privacy if they want it. It’s just that it hasn’t been the custom. And that’s really what we’re talking about I think—changing customs.
Ok, but keeping people’s birth sex a secret is not the purpose of a single-sex locker room. It’s to provide a private and reasonably safe space for getting undressed and showering.
If a trans woman has a penis, then they are outing themselves as male to everyone in the room.