Jail a person for serial proposing?

Great Debates
1

In the news is the story of 50-year-old Col. Kassem Saleh, a U.S. soldier who apparently has wooed up to 50 women he met through internet dating services. “The New York Times reported Wednesday that the women, who compiled a list of more than 50 women to whom 50-year-old Col. Kassem Saleh proposed, want the colonel punished.” Saleh is married, btw. Some of the women want the Army or civil authorities to send him to jail, though it’s unclear what the charge would be.

It doesn’t look like he took these women for money or anything like that – at least I haven’t read it. They want him sent to jail for proposing while he had no intention of getting married.

So far, what I’ve read indicates these women were not in the military – he hadn’t even met some of them personally – so he wasn’t preying on women under his command. Would a breach-of-contract suit be possible for proposing while married?

Part of me says this guy is a world-class jerk and surely there must be some sort of military rule he violated. And obviously the military shouldn’t condone this behavior.

But another part of me says, what if we started enforcing laws against everyone who hurt a lover’s feelings? And for our soldiers, what happens if we start rating them based on behavior outside their jobs?

Because he’s in the military, this adds another dimension to the case. If a company said it was going to punish a man for this behavior, it might be on the losing end of a lawsuit that says his bosses have no authority to enforce their morality on his time. The military is a different organization, though.

Where do we draw the line in military cases, and civilian cases? Do we prosecute women who get engaged, accept large amounts of gifts, and break off the engagement?

One thing that interests me about this case is the reaction of one woman:

Reading between the lines, it’s not just the jilting. It’s the image. She really wants everyone to know she’s a bright, intellectual professional woman. Apparently if this happens to someone lesser than her, it’s okay.

2

I’m sure a big part of these women’s anger is stemming from embarrassment. He made them all look like fools.

He’s a bad, bad person.

But he didn’t do anything illegal.

I’m sure at least one brother or father of one of these 50 women will give him the punishment he deserves.

3

The guy is a first class master dick. I hope his wife really lets him have it.

But…I don’t think he did anything illegal. Or really anything worthy of a civil suit.

And did you get a look/listen to some of his, uh, victims?
Not to water down this guys dickheadedness or anything, but some of those women were victims waiting to happen. One never saw or spoke with him, but accepted a marriage proposal over e-mail and expected happily-ever-after. How niave.

4

Since his is married already, I guess they might try to push something like intent to commit bigamy or something.

5

Yes because women are defenseless creatures incapable of taking care of themselves. I just feel sorry for those who may not have brothers or fathers to protect them.

6

You know, there are people on this board who I love dearly. There are even some who I wouldn’t mind marrying, and there are a couple who aren’t married as far as I know (montro, please don’t let me down here). On the other hand, if Polycarp himself were to suddenly become available for marriage tomorrrow, there’s still no way I’d marry him or accept his proposal without spending a few days with him in real life.

These women were fools. They may not be habitual fools, but in this case, they were fools, just like Saleh was a jerk (in my opinion, of course). I understand being hurt and outraged. I was pretty angry myself when I learned from someone else that the fellow who was courting me was married. I don’t think it’s worth hauling in the law over it, although I’m pretty sure there at least used to be laws regarding “Breach of Promise” which may be applicable in this case.

So, they fell in love with a jerk. That happens everyday, to the dismay of some of us non-jerks who sometimes wonder when someone’s going to fall in love with us. Hopefully they’ve learned a thing or two and can move on. As far as I can tell, the main damage done was to their egos. That, at least to me, should not be something you go to court about. (Then again, I also have to admit, I’d be too embarrassed to go.)

CJ

7

For all those that said the conduct was certainly not illegal, I ask if you’re aware of the Uniform Code of Militray Justice.

If you are not, I ask why you’re speaking about what sorts of things are illegal or not illegal for a military officer to do with such certainty.

If you are, I remind you of Article 133 thereof, which punishes “…any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman…” who is convicted of “conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman.”

From a commentary on Article 133:

While I have no idea if the case law for this Article would support charges for this conduct, I am not prepared to say with blanket certainty that the conduct was legal.

Are you?

  • Rick
8

Would this possibly count as Harrassment?

9

I think it’s a weak case for Conduct Unbecoming, but what do I know?

I also think these women are culpable for their own stupidity. If they’re so naiive and self-deluded as to believe that some internet mash notes from some guy they’ve never met amounts to an actual relationship then they seriously need help. Their “bothers and fathers” needed to clue these women in to begin with, not go looking to beat up some guy who plucked a few pigeons who desperately wanted to get plucked.

10

I agree it’s a weak case. For all I know, there may be some case law somewhere in the US Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces that is directly on point for this set of facts.

But I’m not as confident as, say, lezlers, in declaring that he absolutely didn’t do anything illegal. Certainly civilian law wouldn’t criminalize this conduct, but people seem to forget that the military is subject to its own set of laws.

  • Rick
11

Well, the “conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman” raises several other issues – what is a gentleman, why is the military entitled to enforce gentlemanly behavior on people it trains to kill and blow things up – and what happens when a woman officer does not act like a “gentleman”?

Can we hold every woman in the military to the standards of “gentlemanly” behavior? And if we do, who defines it?

12

The commentary for the UCMJ says:

It also notes that among the actions made illegal by this article are: dishonorable failure to pay a debt; cheating on an exam; opening and reading a letter of another without authority; using insulting or defamatory language to another officer in that officer’s presence or about that officer to other military persons; being drunk and disorderly in a public place; public association with known prostitutes; and committing or attempting to commit a crime involving moral turpitude.

Possible penalities include dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for a period of up to a year, or such greater confinement for the most analogous offense for which a punishment is prescribed elsewhere in the UCMJ. In other words, if the offense is giving false material testimony under oath, then the possible UCMJ penalty is five years in confinement; additionally, theaccused may be charged under this article and, as I read it, also recevive five years for conduct unbecoming.

Corrections from any military lawyers welcome, of course.

  • Rick
13

In doing what he did, he has given the Army a black eye. This is especially not welcomed during a time of war and the protesting thereof. The military does not like any more bad PR that it already gets. How many civilian men have proposed to women they have met via the internet? How many had no intentions of marrying these women? I’m sure it happens every day. Why is the media running this Col up the flag pole?

14

I think it would open too much of a can of worms to push a CUOG charge. They can’t do that for every guy who breaks an engagement or who plays multiple women. My guess is that he’ll get some sort of reprimand, and it may end his upward career trajectory, but I would be quite surprised if he actually faced formal charges.

Of course, IANAML (or even a regular L). Maybe I’m totally wrong.

15

I was thinking about civilian law, as that is the only thing I’m even remotely familiar with.

I didn’t mean to offend.

To all the people with the snarky responses to my “fathers and brothers” statement - get a grip. Out of 50 women, I’m pretty sure the guy will have at least a couple of angry guys going after him (and yes, angry women). That’s just a fact. No need for the feminist army to come after me, I’m sure there are better fights to fight out there.

16

If this guy were a civilian… he’d just be a total jerk.

But he’s in the military, and in the military they play by different rules. I’d say breaking the hearts of 50 women is most certainly conduct unbecoming an officer and gentlemen.

17

Goodbye to Captain Spaulding, he must be going.

As long as nuptuals and marriage dates haven’t been arranged, as long as gifts haven’t been received by the guy, there is probably no case but that of an online cad making fun of lonely women. Just a romance role-play theat went too far.

If anything, this goes under cruelty.

18

My vote is for “Conduct Unbecoming of an Officer.”

I see no reason for the military to willingly accept the misdeeds of this person. He has misrepresented himself in a callous fashion and besmirched the good name of his fellow soldiers. Rather unbecoming conduct, I’d say.

19

in socials we were talking about something similer to this, i know that here in canana one time this guy proposed to his gf so she’d sleep with him ( she didn’t want to until they were engaged) and after he slept with her she called it off, she went to court and sewed his a.s.s for breaking a bethodel or something like that, and she won a fair bit of cash

20

She sewed his ass? Yikes! I’m never going to get that lady mad at me.
And what is “bethodel?” Is that when yodelers get engaged?