Just out of curiosity, Peter, what is your skill if you are not a dowser? What is your method for finding dry spots?
EZ
Kvetching.
If I may be so bold, and I may be wrong, but Peter isn’t claiming (and has never claimed) a paranormal ability to find dry holes. Rather, this whole business stems from a sequence similar to:
Dowser: I can find undergound water.
Randi: Well, underground water is actually pretty common. It’d be more impressive (heh-heh-heh) if you find places that didn’t have underground water.
Peter: So, you’ll give me a million dollars if I can find a dry hole?
Randi: What? Are you claiming a paranormal ability to find dry holes?
Peter: No, but you said finding a dry hole would be impressive.
Randi: The million is for proven paranormal abilities.
Peter: But you said! LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!
Randi: Get away, boy, you bother me.
Peter: RANDI IS A LIAR! RANDI IS A LIAR! NYAH NYAH-NYAH NYAH-NYAH-NYAH! HE WON’T GIVE ME A MILLION DOLLARS, THE BIG FAT LIAR! HE’S A FRAUD AND A CHARLATAN AND ANYONE WHO DOESN’T AGREE IS IN ON THE CONSPIRACY TO CHEAT ME OF MY MILLION DOLLARS! WAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!
But like I said, I may be wrong.
No it was more like this:
Dowser: I can find undergound water.
Randi: Well, underground water is actually pretty common. It’d be more impressive (heh-heh-heh) if you find places that didn’t have underground water. That is my challenge to dowsers: find me a dry spot. I will give a million dollars to anyone that can find me a dry spot. I keep making this challenge, I’re been making it for years and dowsers are always too cowardly to accept. None of them will take me up on this challenge. This proves how great I am and how dowsers know they are wrong. Please give me some money.
**Peter : ** Dear Mr Randi. I think you are mistaken . I’ve consulted several geologists, and they tell me that water is a lot less common than you think, and dry spots are everywhere. If someone took up your challenge to find a dry spot, all they’d have to do is dig a hole at random, and have a very high chance of success.
Randi : I don’t want to talk about it.
Peter : But I think you are giving out incorrect information. Perhaps you could look at what I’ve said, in the interests of fairness and accuracy.
Randi : Go away and leave me alone. I don’t wan’t to hear if I’m wrong.
Peter : Very well, Mr Randi, if that’s your attitude. I accept your challenge. I will find you that dry spot you want.
**Randi: ** OhshitohshitohshitImintrouble It was just a figure of speech. I didn’t mean it. I don’t want you to fijnd dry spots at all.
**Peter: ** But Mr Randi, you have been making the challenge for years. You have given many lectures where you issue the “dry spot” challenge. You state that the dowsers won’t accept. But I will take you upon it.
**Randi : ** But I didn’t mean it. I don’t wanna. Waaah Waaaaah. My tale of dowsers turning down the test was just a figure of speech. It never really happened. I didn’t mean it. I wasn’t serious when I made the challenge. Leave me alone. I don’t want to do it.
Peter : Yeah, I know you were talking rubbish. Nevertheless, you have made the challenge, and I’m accepting it.4
**Randi ** But I won’t do it. I won’t. Look. if you want a challenge, I’ll give you one. Sionce you say you can find a dry spot in the ground. Well then, you should be able to use your dowsing powers to find wet or dry soil in a plastic container.
**Peter ** That has nothing to do with it. I’m not a dowser. My claim is that I can find dry spots in the ground. Something that YOU have said is paranormal. The geologists I consulted disagree. They tell me dry spots are all over the place. . Since YOU think it’s paranormal, you should test me on that.
Randi : I’ve already offered you the best test I am capable of devising. What I’ve offered is as fair and reasonable a test as I’ve ever given anyone. You must be the unreasonable one if you turn it down.
** Peter :** Sigh :rolleyes: :wally
** Randi : ** Ho ho ho, another victory for Randi. Another paranormalist who turns down a fair and reasonable test. This proves he knows he’s in the wrong. Randi is so wonderful and fair. The tests I give are always devised based on discussion with the applicant. They keep on turning my tests down.
Peter : I present this tale as an example of how dishonest Randi is.
a) The “scientific” information in his lectures and books is wildly inaccurate.
b) His stories of defeating paranormalists are distorted. Some of them are invented entirely, they never actually happened.
c) His design for tests don’t make sense. He is incompitent to design and run them.
d) He does not discuss the matter with applicants. Anyone trying to negotiate a test with Randi finds a rude and aggressive response making negotiation impossible. Anyone wanting a test is railroaded into Randi’s design, not given the test Randi wants.
e) And when Randi meets someone that really can do the things he claims, Randi chickens out and refuses to actually honour the challenge.
Fanatical Randi lover : The Randi-God cannot be wrong. He must be telling the truth. I love him so much. Peter must be moaning because he didn’t get the million. Thus I ignore Randi’s lies.
I’ll agree that Randi has said this in is commentaries before. I think he’s being lighthearted. It’s a joke, ah say it’s a joke, son!
Please show me were Randi states that the ‘dry spot’ challenge is sufficent to win the million. Randi may have said he’d be impressed at finding dry spots, hell he may even believe that’d be impressed but he’s never said that would win the million. Show me a quote where he says “Find me a dry spot, and there’s a million pounds for you” not one where he just mentions the two things but one where he directly links them.
Randi may have been mistaken about dry spots, he made have made a mistake, it could be all semantics. Randi isn’t infailable and he does have some weird ideas sometimes. However the million dollar challenge isn’t to do with Randi being perfect, it’s to do with proving a paranormal ability or effect in a self-evident way such that any onlooker viewing the test will go “Yessiree Bob, that’s some pretty obvious proof of the paranormal there”.
You may have lots of good arguments against Randi and you may be able to point out lots of flaws in his work but this isn’t a good one to dwell on. Really.
SD
This is an accurate quote of James Randi only insofar as a gallon of water is dry.
No it was more like this:
Dowser: I can find undergound water.
Randi: Well, underground water is actually pretty common. It’d be more impressive (heh-heh-heh) if you find places that didn’t have underground water. That is my challenge to dowsers: let’s agree on some test that really proves your paranormal ability. Then I will happily give you $1,000,000!
**Peter : ** Randi. You are a liar and a cheat. I’ve had one conversation with an anonymous geologist, and I didn’t understand what they told me. Plus I don’t believe you have the money and all your illusions are stupid and I hate you and everything you stand for and I will spend the rest of my life posting anywhere to say so and it doesn’t matter if nobody else agrees with me because I am right and I hate you.
Randi : I don’t want to listen to your tirade.
Peter : Randi. You are a liar and a cheat. I’ve had one conversation with an anonymous geologist, and I didn’t understand what they told me. Plus I don’t believe you have the money and all your illusions are stupid and I hate you and everything you stand for and I will spend the rest of my life posting anywhere to say so and it doesn’t matter if nobody else agrees with me because I am right and I hate you.
Randi : But I know you are giving out incorrect information. Perhaps you could look at what I’ve said, in the interests of fairness and accuracy.
Peter : Go away and leave me alone. I don’t want to hear if I’m wrong.
**Randi: ** Look, we can be reasonable about this. Plenty of people have agreed a test with me, and taken it. The money is there. All you need to do is act rationally.
**Peter: ** Randi. You are a liar and a cheat. I’ve had one conversation with an anonymous geologist, and I didn’t understand what they told me. Plus I don’t believe you have the money and all your illusions are stupid and I hate you and everything you stand for and I will spend the rest of my life posting anywhere to say so and it doesn’t matter if nobody else agrees with me because I am right and I hate you.
**Randi : ** Yeah, I know you were talking rubbish. Nevertheless, I have made the $1,000,000 challenge, and I’m sticking by it.
Peter : Go away and leave me alone. I don’t want to hear if I’m wrong.
**Randi ** OK. (Phew!)
**Peter ** Randi. You are a liar and a cheat. I’ve had one conversation with an anonymous geologist, and I didn’t understand what they told me. Plus I don’t believe you have the money and all your illusions are stupid and I hate you and everything you stand for and I will spend the rest of my life posting anywhere to say so and it doesn’t matter if nobody else agrees with me because I am right and I hate you.
Randi : I’ve already offered you a fair agreed test. Why do you continue being so abusive?
** Peter :** Randi. You are a liar and a cheat. I’ve had one conversation with an anonymous geologist, and I didn’t understand what they told me. Plus I don’t believe you have the money and all your illusions are stupid and I hate you and everything you stand for and I will spend the rest of my life posting anywhere to say so and it doesn’t matter if nobody else agrees with me because I am right and I hate you.
I present this tale as an example of how silly and unpleasant Peter Morris is.
a) The “scientific” claims in his posts are wildly inaccurate.
b) His stories of discussing tests are distorted. Some of them are invented entirely, they never actually happened.
c) His designs for tests don’t make sense.
d) He does not discuss the matter with Randi. Anyone trying to negotiate a test with Morris finds a rude and aggressive response making negotiation impossible. Anyone wanting to discuss a test is faced with endless repetition of lies and abuse.
e) And when Morris meets someone that really can pay him money for the things he claims, Morris chickens out and refuses to actually honour the challenge. Instead he posts endlessly on the Internet.
Fanatical Peter Morris lover* : I cannot be wrong. I must be telling the truth. I love him so much. I must be moaning because I didn’t get the million. Thus I ignore my lies.
*can you guess who it is?
That should have been:
Anyone wanting a test is railroaded into meeting Randi’s demands, not given the test the applicant wants.
And that is what the geologist DID describe as dry in geological terms.
I understood that the geologist asked whether this was dry or not. If this was a rhetorical question, then could Randi’s question “Who’ll find me a dry spot?” not also be rhetorical?
Randi : lies, and phony challenge.
Peter : acceptance of the challenge.
Randi : evasion and cowardice
Peter : exposure of Randi’s dishonesty.
Glee : Inability to face the facts. Blind worship. Hatred. Propaganda. Lack of basic common sense.
No. Randi made a specific boast that he had always offered this test to dowsers, and the dowsers always refuse.
This boast had two effects:
-
Shameless self-promotion. He puffed up his own image, as a man willing to stand by his claims. The story of wonderful Randi offering a challenge. What a great guy he is.
-
Discrediting the dowsers. Telling tales of how they always refuse to be tested. Make them seem as unwilling to put their claims to the test.
The trouble is, it was a total fabrication. It never happened. And when I took him up on the challenge he issued, he chickened out.
So, just to clarify what would bring an end to your crusade, Peter, if Randi said this:
“Underground water is actually pretty common. It’d be more impressive if you find places that didn’t have underground water. That would be more of a challenge. Not good enough for the $1M - that needs proper testing conditions like opaque containers or pipes and so forth - but a challenge nonetheless.”
…would you still think he was formally issuing a literal challenge?
Is it just my imagination, or has Peter Morris taken one misunderstood exchange with Randi and turned it into an entire Weltanschauung?
I think if you insert the word “deliberately” in front of misunderstood you will have put your finger right on it.
There’s an episode of “Cheers” where Harry the Hat puts a shot of whiskey under his hat on the bar, and then bets Cliff $10 that he can drink it without ever touching the hat. Cliff readily agrees, and they both put their money down on the table. The challenge begins. Harry kneels under the bar and makes “glub glub glub” sounds, then gets up and proclaims that the deed is done. Cliff, unbelieving, picks the hat up to check. Harry snatches up the shot glass and downs it, then collects the money much to Cliff’s dismay. Harry defends himself by saying he drank the shot, and in fact never touched the hat to do it. He met the conditions and won the bet even though it sure didn’t meet up with Cliff’s expectation.
This is kind of what I’m seeing here. Randi’s challenge is to test paranormal ability. He says to test a dowser’s ability to detect water, it would be easier to test a dowser’s ability to look for dry spots. Peter equated this to saying that finding a dry spot is then an acceptable paranormal challenge.
But Peter is not a dowser and is not trying to prove any paranormal abilities, at least so far as I can tell. But, Peter, if you are NOT using any paranormal ability to find dry spots, by default you don’t qualify for the challenge because that is a prerequisite condition of the test. And if you are claiming to have a paranormal ability to find dry spots, then a suitable test, different than the one for the dowsers, would have to be used in order to prove the claim, because dowsing is a different ability.
It sure looks like you’re trying to drink the shot without touching the hat here… Only Randy won’t pick it up for you.
EZ
Oh, you are wonderful! :rolleyes:
Let’s have a look at the evidence:
You claim James Randi has ‘lied’. You give no cite.
You claim he has made a ‘phony challenge’. You give no cite.
You claim you have ‘accepted the challenge’. Since you obviously have no clue what the challenge is, let me give you a cite:
‘At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.’
‘All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant.’
As you see, the money is for a supervised demonstration of paranormal powers. Let’s have a look at what you offer to do:
Well obviously you’re mistaken about the challenge.
You don’t claim paranormal powers.
You haven’t agreed the test with the Randi Foundation.
Are you stupid or a liar?
Just to rub it in, here is a quote from early on in this thread.
You claim Randi has shown ‘evasion and cowardice’. Gee, I wonder if you have a cite? :rolleyes:
You claim ‘exposure of Randi’s dishonesty’. **Of course ** you offer no cite.
Finally you produce a list of unsubstantiated allegations against me.
I particularly enjoyed your claim that I have an ‘inability to face the facts.’ And what facts are they?
That you don’t understand the Randi Foundation Challenge?
That you have an irrational hatred of James Randi?
That you don’t know what a rhetorical question is?
That you have no support either here, or on other boards, where you peddle your propaganda?
Peter, I challenge you to eat five metric tons of bananas within a 24-hour period. If you do this, I will give you a million dollars
Peter, I challenge you to wiggle your ears at me.
TEST:
- If Peter wiggles his ears at me, do I owe him a million dollars?
- Is it possible for an individual to issue more than one challenge at a time?
I’ll give the answers later.
Daniel
Actually, to me his version reads more like a (adult-language) Chick tract. Compare this bit:
To the biology teacher’s thoughts (“He’s killing me. I’ve gotta play it cool!” and “(Gulp) He’s destroying me!”) when confronted by an eager young creationist in this Chick classic.
He’s got a point there!
Sorry, couldn’t resist. 
I will refer to my post with a metaphor for what Peter is trying to do.