Cf. Deep Throat.
Pink Floyd, In The Flesh from The Wall:
Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
There’s one in the spotlight, he don’t look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!
That one looks Jewish!
And that one’s a coon!
Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
There’s one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way,
I’d have all of you shot!
If you’re trying to emulate them wouldn’t that be their they’re there fuckit, hell.
I think you’re forgetting his narcissism and desire for a good photo op. He didn’t want to actually lead the charge or expend effort, but standing with a backdrop of cheering fans waving Trump flags in front of the Capitol? Absolutely.
You’ll notice, though, that Woodward and Bernstein used this source as a basis to find other information. They didn’t cite Deep Throat as the authority for their claims.
Feel free to be skeptical. But again, my issue that your response to me addressed Trump and his claims, although I didn’t mention either. Your response was that Trump’s claims were “the closest thing in your cite to support your assertion that she lost out on a job at Mar-a-Lago”, which implies that you think Trump claiming something is more credible than CNN citing a former White House aide. I find that hard to believe.
It suggests to me that both Ornato and Hutchinson could be telling the truth. For Hutchinson, who didn’t have to be in the immediate presidential presence all that often, an incident of Trump lunging for the steering wheel was a remarkable holy-schist moment. For Ornato, who had to deal with him up close and personal all the time, it was Wednesday. Thus, it’s easy to see why she would remember and he wouldn’t.
Read the cite linked in this thread.
I assume you’re referring to me with this. I did not use this to cast doubt on her testimony. This is backwards. The doubts on her testimony are cast by her being apparently contradicted by numerous witnesses. Other people assert that her testimony outweighs their’s because she had no reason to lie. I cited the job at MaL as part of some speculation as to why she might lie or (more likely) remember things inaccurately. But again, it’s not like the job arrangement on its own is being used to cast doubt. It’s just being used (as part of a broader picture) to counter the notion that she is more reliable than numerous other witnesses.
I don’t think that’s the type of thing you forget. Also, from what I’m reading, it sounds like Hutchinson was in Trump’s presence all the time. She accompanied Meadows all over the place, on AF1 etc. Further, it’s not just Ornato - apparently Engel and the limo driver also agree that the incident didn’t happen.
You dropped a cite into your post, without quoting anything from it, for the proposition that Hutchinson had a falling out with Meadows and lost a job at Mar-a-Lago.
The most fully fleshed out reference to that in your cite was the quote I pulled out. If you were instead standing on the one sentence that mentioned an unnamed aid, then you could have quoted it.
Instead, you cited this assertion as a fact, without identifying any particular corroborating information. And although you provided a link, it does not make this same assertion as a definitive fact.
I was trying to engage with your evidence. If I misunderstood what you were advocating, I do apologize.
So, I’ll retract my trump quote and instead respond with
What are their names?
Really? Got a quote or two?
I don’t feel like I’m drawing a whole lot of conclusion from that. It was one part of a picture, which I presented as speculation.
That said, I probably do regard that source more highly than you seem to. I don’t think CNN are Trump-worshipping patsies, and it’s not like it was the core of a huge story that they couldn’t otherwise run.
In sum, I think that source was reliable enough for the limited use that I made of it. YMMV.
re: the lunge / go to Capitol.
I think there is a big middle ground between it either happened as Cassidy described or its false. For me, she described a scenario where Trump really wanted to go to the Capitol to the point of making physical movements in order to go. She recounted/paraphrased words told to her that described the event.
Any denial of how Cassidy describes it, generally state, “prepared to testify President did not lunge” “I was not assaulted” - those specific types of denials. Versus, a flat out denial.
Those are lawyer responses. Assault is an unwanted touch. For example, If the SS did not mind being touched, they could truthfully state they were not assaulted and Cassidy is full of it. Lunge is a subjective movement. If the SS saw the President point at or motion towards the steering wheel, but not lunge, they could truthfully state the President did not lunge at the steering wheel and Cassidy is full of it. It’s all very subjective and you can cleverly and truthfully deny a lot of it, but the basic gist is the same.
I imagine something eventful happened. I imagine, and expect, the SS to deny everything that makes the (office of the) President look bad to every extent possible. Worrying about the granular details of it and someone dismissing it outright if those granular details are denied, you’ll never satisfy that person.
This thread keeps growing and I can’t keep up with it-- and I HATE to post without being informed about what I have missed. There may be a post that makes all this moot, but please indulge me to point out that this is yet another pointless distraction.
Donald Trump has ten or twelve years left on this planet by most estimates and his viability is declining at a rapid rate so half of those years may be spent as a slobbering invalid. If he is taken down by sedition charges or treason charges - or even craven cat juggling matters little and not at all at this point in the journey. He has broken many laws and there will be time to determine which specifically when that becomes imminent.
How about we focus on what his actual actions have been and without categorizing them, remind the world of those actions as Si_Amigo implores. I mean . . . I like charging down the rabbit holes as much as anyone, and too some degree the more arcane and pedantic the better, but this is too important to fight among ourselves. Trump did this, then he did that, followed by another thing, and finally [delete the paragraphs of distracting speculation about what charges those actions should be, could be, might be] finally, just say he committed unspecified criminal acts which need to be FULLY investigated by a state or federal agency with the authority to enforce consequences.
Two more things:
Is it possible this is a sincere question? I have mentioned more times than I am comfortable admitting that Ms. Hutchinson is easy to look at. She is also kind, empathetic, smart, sincere, and very earnest. I am also relatively certain she was not hiding from co-workers (perhaps not including her boss- but those at or below her level) that she was pretty fed-up with Trump by this point.
The valet told her about the tantrum and she immediately picked up a towel and started to help cleaning up the mess. Awfully sure that was not in her job description, but she did it anyway. People liked her, trusted her, confided in her and it is possible some were attracted to her as well. I think that should demonstrate to us why she was widely liked and admired by those who were not specifically out to “score with her” (I have even been that guy before- men are just pigs sometimes, very disappointing).
As for the security agents, they were peers and coworkers and I am sure there were many times when they swapped stories about a bad day or an outrageous event. (Have I mentioned that the delightful Ms. Hutchinson is attractive, trusting, so honest she would never lie outright- or probably even exaggerate? So she might have been less likely to suspect others of lying or exaggerating because those flaws were just not part of her being. Have I also mentioned that after the events of the previous few days she might have had some negative attitude toward Trump?)
In that setting, she is in a room with a guy who might want to impress her and he exaggerates a basically true story to make himself or his department look better-- plus to play up to her disappointment with Trump. Have any of you ever spoken to an attractive woman before?? Trump yelled and screamed, made outrageous demands, then fumed in the backseat becomes - - - "he lunged at the wheel !! He attacked him personally !! His tiny hands grew to three times their original size !! Even the perfectly respectful and professional responses they were supposed to have given sound like they are out of a fairy tale
Very clearly “Tony”, her coworker and confidant gave her the Princess Bride version of events, and because she is kind, sincere, honest, and empathetic – she believed it.
Of course the Secret Service can deny Trump lunged for the steering wheel! Even if he did, protecting him from public scrutiny of that event is part of the job. (I know a Secret Service agent- spilling the beans on their charges is NOT accepted and would be reason to send you to protect something insignificant inside the Arctic Circle). I have no doubt that Hutchinson told the truth as she knew it. If she was misinformed by her “friends” and coworkers that is on them, not on her and as dozens have stated-- Trump endeavored very strongly to go to the capitol if he tried to commandeer the vehicle or not.
Last thing. It might be better to ignore rather than engage posts that make outrageous or hard to understand claims.
[completely pointless corollary that might be best ignored quite honestly]
If I was telling Ms. Hutchinson the story of one time when I caught a nine inch pan fryer in a remote stream: "I only had a four pound leader, so I had to play him over and over again. (leaning closer to her) See, he was a fighter and he would take off upstream- run out about fifty, sixty feet of line-- but then he was tired so I could reel in about half of that before he tore out again. I had to be patient, if I pulled too hard or reeled him in too fast the line would break and we had been stranded in this snow storm for over a week with nothing to eat. One time, he ran out my whole reel, a full hundred feet of line. It was good strong line, but the leader-- the last few feet of line was thin and weak so that the fish couldn’t see it. My companions wanted to help - - but they were just too weak from fatigue and hunger. (Many paragraphs of similar bullshit skipped . . . )
Finally he was getting tired. When his back broke the water surface it was enormous! He made another run, a last ditch effort, but he was so tired by then that he only went about twenty feet before there was no more fight in him. I had been wrestling with this magnificent creature for more than two hours by then. There were icicles hanging from my nose and I was so tired. But when he stopped fighting, I was afraid he had finally snapped the line!! Without the protein he could provide, we would never have the strength to carry Clarence over the peak and down the mountain to the ranger station where they could set his broken leg and radio for more help.
If the leader had snapped, Cassidy . . . if I lost that fish, none of us would have made it out alive. I slowly, gently, with great care reeled in the monster. It was close enough by now that I could see he was on his side and I could see his dorsal fin was catching on some submerged brush. But we needed that fish- we needed it to survive. (Perhaps a dramatic pause, and wipe away imaginary sweat from my brow with a monogrammed hankie.) I carefully worked my way down stream over the icy snow drifts and fallen trees. Finally he was out of the snags and I gently urged him toward shore. He had revived a little bit and was going to make another run up the stream but I diverted him into a rocky little recess so he couldn’t. It took three of us to lift him out of the stream and after we cooked him and ate him there were enough leftover to last nearly a week. Now let me tell you about the time the president- a hulking man well over six feet tall weighing over two-hundred and sixty pounds tried to commandeer my vehicle. He grabbed the wheel . . . . . . . then he attacked me personally!! Tried to grab me by the neck, but I dodged him and he could grab me only by the clavicle. He was so angry, almost a madman!!! Mike Tyson was in the back seat with him and asked him calm down – the president knocked Tyson out with one punch. Then he told me “I AM THE President and . . . .” But I told him, very sorry sir but I have to return you to West Wing for your own safety . . .
False.
The unnamed source that you are breathlessly salivating over claimed this. You are acting as though God himself came down from the clouds to declare this.
Edited: probably got too personally directed and even a little junior moddish. Retracted.
trump throwing a fit is not beyond credibility. he fully expected to go to the capitol, there was even a route picked.
he was told that he would not go to the capitol. he “pitched a fit”. i’m prepared to believe that he kicked the seat the entire ride back to the west wing.
once back at the wh ornato was outside meadows’ office and encountered hutchinson and had her go into his office where engel was seated, the story was told.
this is my understanding from the hearing on tuesday.
Who? Who are these “numerous witnesses”, and what exactly have they said to dispute her testimony? Please cite the words these witnesses used, and where exactly they gave this testimony so I can go and judge their veracity for myself.
An unidentified source, probably named John Barren, says she’s a big poopy head liar. Therefore the entire committee is null and void. That appears to be the claim as far as I can tell.
It should also be noted that Hutchinson was one link in a game of telephone. The phrase she kept repeating of “words to the effect” is important. People don’t remember what was said to them, they remember their interpretation of what was said to them.
So its possible, for example, that in relating the events, Ortano said that Trump “lunged at the driver” which created an image in Hutchinson’s mind of Trump reaching for the steering wheel. So that when she recalls the conversation she reports that Ortano said Trump lunged at the steering wheel.