And why did he want them to, “Fight like hell”?
And that he had no concerns about being a victim of their violence. It wasn’t just an angry armed mob; it was his angry armed mob.
(And, while there is no evidence that Trump had coordinated with the Oath Keeper/Proud Boy contingents, if he had, his comments take on the tone of “Yes, of course the people here are armed. That was the plan all along”)
Maybe it was just shorthand, but – much as I appreciate @Si_Amigo trying to keep us from tripping over dollars to pick up dimes …
What he said was actually a bit more than that:
We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.
We’re back to the genius of Trump’s sociopathy and narcissism.
Think about the totality of what he said in that statement alone, and the psychographics of the people to whom he said it.
If this is junior modding, someone can slap my hand, but why don’t you start a thread just about Cassidy and her comments? You can discuss in as much detail as you want.
Or start another thread, “Hutchinson: Liar or Confused?”
I’ve never considered someone making a suggestion to be junior modding. Posters ask other posters to do things all the time; e.g., read this cite, etc.
Saying, “It would be nice if you could start a new thread to discuss this,” is different from, “You have to start a new thread.”
Trump held the rally to wind up and aim his army. And these armed people, who were almost certainly among his most hardcore supporters, were his front line, the core of his troops. So of course he wanted them in the rally. And I suspect he also wanted them nearby to protect him when they got to the Capitol. I think had Trump been at the Capitol it would have been much worse & many of those weapons would have been used, at his behest. We should be grateful the asshole doesn’t have the muscle to back up his tantrums, though I bet he can’t drive so even if he’d taken the wheel, he’d have steered straight into a tree.
What would have happened if he’d successfully grabbed the wheel, from Slate:
…let’s speculate. First of all, it’s certainly been years since Donald Trump has driven a car, so if he somehow ended up behind the wheel of an armored limo or SUV, the results would be both comical and terrifying. He’d likely attempt to reach down to the floorboards to put the car in drive, because that’s where the shifter is on a golf cart. He would absolutely jam the car into third gear, and he would absolutely floor it.
You can’t easily see the Capitol from the Ellipse, so there’s a decent chance Donald Trump would have had no idea which way to go. Presumably, one of his Secret Service agents—probably the one he hadn’t choked—would have told him to drive down Constitution. Likely he would have wiped out several of his own supporters along the way, and also possibly driven through the lobby of the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History.
So, looking a bit down the road…If the SS comes into play (J6C),
I thought I’d look at the “code” that Secret Service live by:
SS Student agreement:
Then there’s this:
https://www.secretservice.gov/foia/exemptions
Maybe someone with legal knowledge will interpret this better than me, but (as a layman) it looks like any SS testimony is fraught with easy outs.
FWIW, the agents on Bill Clinton’s Secret Service protective detail were legally compelled to testify in the investigation of the Lewinsky scandal.
That is a good find. But like then, it all depends on the courts, which is now sketchy (imo). Including SCOTUS.
IMO we’re on the edge of a cliff here. -We are relying on a few key people to do the right thing. 2020 election was saved because a few people (Secretaries of State) held their ground.
But the opposition saw the weakness in plain sight. They are saturating school districts and local/state government. Occupying polling stations and railroading good and fair people out.
I’m as struck in awe of being alive when history is being written as I am in the horror of how it’s playing out.
But I’m always rooting for the good guys…
Well, of course, I mean that was a real threat to our country!
/s
I will apologize for a delay in answering one specific concern below, but I was delayed most of the day with other matters and when I was finally able to revisit this thread I had to go back and read hundreds of posts including ones from a particular poster whom I would normally skip over – and then I had to read dozens of replies to be sure where we were as a whole before addressing anything at all.
It is my profound intention to address only matters from the hearings, but I do need to respond to a specific post below. While I hope to stay out of the weeds, my reply may inspire others. Please resist the temptation, I need a place to discuss the hearings-- in my social and geographic circle no one else is even watching the “left-wing propaganda machine, witch hunt, UNSELECT Committee dog and pony show”. They will not even watch ten or fifteen minute summaries from as neutral sources as I can find, so please let’s keep me in good graces here.
I largely agree with you, we see this very much the same but I was trying to make a distinction that might have been lost.
I am watching the Committee Hearings with rapt attention. I think they are terribly important and personally I need to know that someone somewhere with some level of authority is doing something that can possibly lead to holding bad actors to account.
I cannot tell you how disheartening it was to watch two Impeachment Trials lead to zero convictions and it made me even sadder that the news pundits accurately predicted that outcome before the first gavel. The January 6th Committee Hearings may well be the most important thing that happens in the first half of this century (meaning no disrespect to the sufferings in Ukraine) for OUR nation.
That being said, they almost have to fail at their intended nominal goal. There is no way this divided Congress, or an possibly even more right leaning one after the mid-term elections, are going to pass any meaningful legislation that will secure future elections. With all the big lie candidates running for high state offices it seems likely the 2024 elections will be less secure than any in the past (unless you believe the rumors about mid-century Chicago). Surely the Committee will learn a great deal about weaknesses in the system, but state laws that allow Secretaries of State, or Legislatures to simply reject slates of electors if ANY objection is made by anyone??? That is a very scary prospect and I am not sure what the January 6th Committee can do to stop that from happening. (The questionable state of the judiciary brings no solace to my soul either.)
But they surely can help explain and define what happened in our last national election and that is what they are doing extremely well. They laid out a seven point plan by an incumbent administration that dates back to even before election day. What is more, they have proven (to me at least- but it seems to many) that this was a coordinated effort with many bad actors conspiring to change the outcome of a presidential election. In fact, on that thought-- it is my opinion that while the most recent hearing was the most spectacular, it is far from the most important.
When DOJ officials are testifying under oath that the former president tried to shake up the entire department to find someone-- anyone to spread his lies. When state officials, hardcore Republican state officials are testifying that they are being bribed and threatened to overturn results. Being asked (forcefully!!) to reject slates of electors, or to submit alternative slates as well??? What the hell!!! How much more do we need ???
I thought Ms. Hutchinson was very composed and believable. If she is a self aggrandizing attention whore she surely fooled me. I saw a young woman stand and deliver despite threats and intimidation and I hope her tormentors are punished beyond any ability to harm her in the future. It was easily the most emotionally gripping hearing for me personally. But it really just confirmed details I sort of knew on a very deep level. Everything else, all the previous hearings seem more substantial (or as substantial).
But still, these are not even criminal trials. They could produce a video tape of Donald J. Trump confessing to masterminding the entire coup attempt with all of his cronies chiming in to add what part they played and it would not matter at all as far as punishing them. And if they are not punished at all-- there will be no- ZERO deterrence value to broadcasting the video. It would in fact embolden those who would try again in the future to know the first guy who tried it wasn’t even criminally prosecuted.
UGGG!
I am getting myself off topic, I am not conveying this well, sorry I do not express my meaning well. Let’s try a new tactic then circle back to a criminal trial and what specifically anyone should be charged with.
Al Capone was famously imprisoned for failure to pay taxes (on illegally gained money). He was brought down by the tax code and syphilis (and I am quite sure we are not allowed to sentence even extreme criminals like traitors to venereal disease). There are plenty of examples of criminals being sentenced for lesser crimes and just recently a kid crossed state lines to bring an assault weapon to a riot, shot three people, killed two of them and was deemed to be acting in self defense.
Now please tell me how it would be more satisfying for Trump to be charged with a certain, specific crime than to have him perp-walked, while shackled in an orange jumpsuit (that matches his complexion) for a lesser charge???
Do you think that . .
I am more than willing to discuss the meaning of Treason, Act of War, Sedition, hell- I will discuss the proper use of mutiny if it holds any significance ---- Once A Criminal Trial Starts!! (Of course, not in this thread however.) Those may be interesting and they will certainly be important if we ever get a criminal trial and if it ever reaches to the heights it should. But even then they are less important than you may think (outside of in a theoretical sense)
Do you think if Trump is sentenced to twenty years with NO chance of parole (not even sure if that would apply in a Federal Case) for Sedition it will matter much to him or anyone who may be contemplating trying the same gambit in the future that he did not get convicted of Treason??? Do you picture DeSantis watching Trump being jailed for malicious mischief turning back to his advisors saying: “Well, it wasn’t treason so let’s carry on with the criminal plan.”???
I believe it is FAR more important that Trump be held accountable and convicted than for the charges to be the most perfect legal fit. Sedition is a pretty serious charge also.
But to take your point more seriously: I just want to see a criminal case develop before it is too late. If Garland and his all American Briefcase Band ever charge Trump and his enablers, I will be all over what crimes they can and should and will be charged with… I might even have two answers. I may say (should this mythical event ever transpire- and I DO trust your expertise Aspenglow, but reality is far too slow for me!) I may say: “Well he should be charged with A, but I prefer they charge him with C or with D because those have a lower threshold for conviction.” Or I may say: “I will not stand for any charge less than A- it must be a charge of A !”
To be honest, I am not sure why he isn’t already facing charges in Georgia. That seems like a slam-dunk to me and has ever since the recorded phone call became public. It is my fervent wish that the day that Brian Kemp and Brad Raffensperger are sworn in, charges drop. So very much poetic justice if that happens!!
Personally, I would like to see Trump and everyone who was involved in the Georgia efforts be convicted and while serving that sentence – face federal charges that dwarf the state ones. To see Trump with twenty stacked sentences would not hurt my feelings one bit. But it would not be enough, I would like to see everyone of the Senators and Congress Members who voted to oppose certification face charges also. I want everyone who signed a slate of false electors to be convicted of sedition with mandatory jail time and lifetime ban on running for office. Here in Arizona, I want Kelli Ward the idio - - person who headed up that effort (by some reports) to receive a severe sentence and the dope who hired Cyber Ninjas (Karen Fann) to “fraudit” the election to be imprisoned also.
I really don’t care if any of them are convicted of the highest crime possible or not, I just want them striped of privilege and public trust, jailed and/or imprisoned, and forbidden to run for or hold office ever again. If any of the conspirators, from Trump on down, are held accountable it will deter most, and those it does not deter would not be deterred by any charge being leveled.
Okay, I might have departed slightly from the topic of January Sixth Hearings toward the end. I will shut-up now, well after one more comment.
I was determined to not post in this thread, I was just going to read and enjoy. But I thought you folks had made a bad decision- I wanted each hearing to have its own thread so each one was a reasonable length. I still think that would be better, this is too damn long in my view. But I want to observe that for, I believe the first time, there were more comments made after the hearing ended than while it was being broadcast. I certainly think that shows how impactful this most recent “Emergency” hearing was. As good as this one was, please, let us remember the powerful testimony given by federal agents and state office holders. This last one makes some very powerful hints of intention – but all of the previous ones contained smoking guns with not only intent but criminal activity.
Okay. But put yourself in those shoes. You’re president of the United States. You’re in the nation’s capitol on a day when Congress is meeting to do something that you don’t like. You’re getting ready to give a speech, and your secret service tells you that among your passionate fans in the crowd, there are fans that are carrying firearms and wearing body armor.
What do you say to your fans in your speech?
Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest Vice President and Congress?
Just shoot me and end this madness here and now!
“Ketchup. I need ketchup.”
Apparently you say this (verbatim from the speech on Jan 6, 2021):
And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.
Our exciting adventures and boldest endeavors have not yet begun. My fellow Americans, for our movement, for our children, and for our beloved country.
My (1) fellow (2) Americans, (3) for (4) our (5) movement, (6) for (7) our (8) children, (9) and (10) for (11) our (12) beloved (13) country (14).
I’m sure it’s entirely a coincidence…