Okay, so I won’t use Rocket Mortgage until they can prove they’ve fixed their algorithm (That’s what this is, a bad algorithm. Totally fixable.)
I also won’t use Wells Fargo, and hope that $10 million fine prompts them to get their act together.
Since I don’t use them, I will be sure to not recommend them to any of my friends.
Bully for you. Most people don’t know about the algorithm, though. Most people don’t know when they are being discriminated against unfairly. So if they get rejected unfairly, they give the system the benefit of the doubt and assume the problem must have been on their end. So they won’t check out another lender because they will assume they will just be told “no” again.
That’s the horrible thing about racial discrimination in the 2020. You don’t have people calling you “nigger”. They actually smile in your face and call you “Miss” and “Mister”. So you get fooled into thinking that people are treating you fairly when they aren’t. And if you do feel suspicious and you dare talk about it, you’ll face skepticism from folks. Skepticism that actually doesn’t make sense when you consider that racial discrimination has been the norm in the US since way before it was even founded.
[quote=“monstro, post:174, topic:913927, full:true”]
[quote=“Ashtura, post:171, topic:913927”]
If a banker has a gazillion dollars to loan out but they decide to discriminate against some people for bullshit reasons, they don’t just sit
If gifted black kids are being shafted by their teachers and we decide to correct this, ideally we would get additional teachers to handle the expanded gifted student body (assuming the current gifted student body is at maximum capacity). If we don’t have the resources to do this, then the students who are currently in the gifted student body might have to give something up. Like, maybe there are some kids in that program who don’t need special attention because they aren’t really uber geniuses, but they were labeled gifted because they tested high on a single test back in the first grade and their white wealthy parents’ insisted they be labeled gifted. They were given an opportunity based on subjective criteria that was denied to someone else based on equally subjective criteria. So making a system with finite resources fairer means that someone is going to be left pouting because they aren’t as special as they thought they were.
[/quote]On your first point: You do realize their are loans and financing specifically for minorities?
You do realize 5% of government contracts have to go to minority owned firms?
As for your last statement about AP classes. What I’ve seen the majority group tend to be Asians. Yet you make it sound like such programs are just for white kids.
Well, the good news, that pushed down to the last paragraph, was this:
App-based approvals are 40% less likely to result in higher mortgage rates for borrowers of color, researchers said in their study, and those avenues do not reject a person’s application based on race.
So while the system hasn’t reached perfection, there have been significant advances. I mean, an avenue to get loans that doesn’t even take race into consideration? Awesome! I expect more advances to come with more banks taking this tack. It really does not make sense, financially speaking, for a bank to consciously reject black applicants more than white applicants, all else being equal. I doubt there are many boardrooms saying “I like money, but not that filthy colored money.”
I didn’t mention AP classes at all. Plenty of nongifted students take AP classes. AP <> gifted. And great for you that your school system has enough Asian students to make up the majority of anything. I assure you that’s not universal.
And yet that’s what they did for centuries, bro. So did all the other business sectors.
It didn’t make sense to keep millions of people enslaved for 300 years. But it happened. Cuz it turns out humans aren’t rational creatures. Oppression doesn’t have to be profitable for it to exist. Sometimes people are hateful just because they enjoy it.
Ok, you tell me. Lets say a school gives a math test and only say the 15 students who score the top 15 grades on the test get to take AP math.
Is that fair?
Should parents or teachers influence be part of the decision making?
Not denying that, but I tend to focus on the present and the future. Because that’s the only thing we can do anything about. One thing I say is show me the racist [insert issue here], and lets fix it. If there’s a board saying “I don’t want that colored money” then absolutely that should be remedied.
You know, whenever anyone says to me “Let’s put the past behind us and start fresh, you can‘t change the past, we need to live in the present and look to the future”, or something of that nature…it’s ALWAYS the person that borrowed money from me and failed to pay it back, or the person that bullied me mercilessly, or hit my car and evaded responsibility, or wronged me in some way.
They make this offer thinking that it makes them a generous big hearted person whose trying oh so hard to be conciliatory and open-minded. And I, by contrast, am a petty and small-minded grudge holder hanging on to hatred and resentment.
It’s an abuser tactic.
Yes, I do think people should influence the decision-making.
The way it typically works is you get recommended for a AP course. Maybe you took honors trigonometry in the eleventh grade and did decently in it, so your teacher recommends you for AP calc because why the hell not.
How did you get into honors trig? Well, you were in honors algebra II. Before that, honors geometry. You got chosen for the honors track because you were in honors classes in middle school. Despite being a solid C student.
How did you get into honors classes in middle school?
You were labeled gifted in elementary school. If you’re gifted in elementary school, you are automatically enrolled in honors classes in middle school even with mediocre grades. At your elementary school, perhaps teachers identified gifted students using a combination of criteria–only one of them objective. The others include things like, “How similar is this kid to the other gifted kids?” and “How much shit am I going to catch from his parents if he isn’t chosen to be in the gifted program?” Since the gifted classroom has a limited number of seats, maybe your teacher gave you priority because you ticked all the boxes while some other kid ticked only some of them.
Do you think this is fair? Because I don’t. It would be nice if parents could influence the decision-making without forcing teachers’ hands, and it would be nice if teachers didn’t fall back on rationalizations that are laden with bias. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with having some subjectivity in the process.
I don’t think guarding opportunities using a test score is good either. The example you give may be (more) fair, but it isn’t a good way of selecting students for advanced coursework. First of all, why only 15? Secondly, a test score doesn’t predict who would benefit the most from a class. Maybe only 10 of those students are interested in AP-level work and the others are fine with taking a regular class. Maybe the student who has the 20th highest test score would wind up making the best grades. Maybe that student wants to be an engineer and would have the motivation to apply what she or he learns in the class to real world problems, while the top scoring student wants to be a novelist and just wants the AP credit to make their college application more impressive. A fair system isn’t always a good one.
I’m sorry all that happened to you. I would certainly hope you are not ascribing those characteristics to me.
But do you get her point?
To put things in perspective for you, my parents lived through Jim Crow. They were kids/teenagers when it was finally dismantled, but they remember it clearly.
It’s hard for folks like them to hear the opinion you expressed. They are alive and well, so it stands to reason that the people who oppressed them are alive and well too. A lot of the things that existed back in the 1960s may not exist now, but the attitudes haven’t completely disappeared. If people were willing to ignore the profits that could be made from treating black people with dignity in the 1960s, why wouldn’t this practice continue today? What magic has occurred over the past fifty years to make people suddenly more rational and more profit-driven?
It is an absolute need though, otherwise you just get racism in reverse to make up for any wrongs of the past. Not only is it not targeted at the correct people, it is very divisive and perpetuates US vs THEM.
We need to be working to forget the past and moving forward with true equality. And I can guarantee you until; this mindset is gone, we will continue to divide.
I have not denied that evil practices have happened in the past, and am fully willing to acknowledge any evils in the present, and condemn any such evils in the future. I asked for examples, you showed them to me, I read every word, and I did not reflexively reject it as you predicted I might. I will not do business with them.
If, however, someone is going to insinuate that I’m akin to a deadbeat/bully/hit-and-run driver/abuser, I’m to take exception to that, and would never say that outside of the Pit (personally, I never would, anywhere, ever). However, I’m willing, in good faith, to assume that wasn’t the actual intent of someone who has never even met me.
[quote=“monstro, post:190, topic:913927, full:true”]
I don’t think guarding opportunities using a test score is good either. The example you give may be (more) fair, but it isn’t a good way of selecting students for advanced coursework. First of all, why only 15? Secondly, a test score doesn’t predict who would benefit the most from a class. Maybe only 10 of those students are interested in AP-level work and the others are fine with taking a regular class. Maybe the student who has the 20th highest test score would wind up making the best grades. Maybe that student wants to be an engineer and would have the motivation to apply what she or he learns in the class to real world problems, while the top scoring student wants to be a novelist and just wants the AP credit to make their college application more impressive. A fair system isn’t always a good one.
[/quote]15 was just a random number.
Now one thing is the school needs to be flexible to the abilities of the students. For example if only 15 are allowed into AP math in a student body of 1,000, that would be crazy. But if the math teachers put their heads together and figured out that say 200 could qualify, then that would make more sense.But OTOH, if the math teachers would just be honest and could tick off just say 50 students who would be qualified and who would benefit from an AP math, then maybe just have that number.
I really think you need to be careful with subjectivity. As you say there are many outside influencers like parents. I’ve seen schools where every parent thinks their kid is “gifted” and arent and then some schools where they darn near all are.
But cant you see that as time moves on one really needs to stop focusing on the past and move forward? Everyday new challenges arise. New people move up into the economy and the world.
Getting back to the OP, while I like Jane Elliott for some things I have never seen her talk about her own experiences. Did she ever have black students in her class? Did she work with black co-teachers? did she ever work under a black principal?
Is that the whole list of hoops you require her to jump through before she can speak on the subject, or are there a few more you are holding in reserve?
Who are you talking to, and about what, exactly? This board is a bit wonky with replies. I try to use quotes when possible.
The post right above mine.