I answered that question as well, which led me to say that you guys need to get the interpretation of the question down to what is actually being asked because so far, I have been asked 4 or 5 different interpretations of this question and have tried to answer all of them but the different interpretations just keep coming.
Of course having black skin could (and I agree likely has) have worse outcomes, especially since I have already stated that all racism is not dead and gone. I agree that things need some work, but overall I am very much against the iiandyiii’s of the world blaming all ill and woes that affect the black population on this overreaching reason of racism. Who needs to work on what is what I have been trying to get to the bottom of for months here. The black population overwhelmingly has issues in which they are way way over-represented, I feel this fault lies primarily with them but I have never disagreed with any help that we as society deem necessary to help them overcome them unless that results in more racism and division.
I think that’s a reasonable viewpoint to hold, even if most people here are going to disagree with you on it. I think a lot of people believe that systemic racism is a core cause of a lot of the black population’s predicament in the US, and that a lot of the issues that black people are over-represented (as you say) is both a symptom and a feedback-loop cause to other problems that they face. The hope is, therefore, that if systemic racism can be reduced (even if it is a relatively minor factor relative to what you view as “internal issues” within the black population), the effect will be to lessen the negative pressure from that factor, which will result in those feedback loops also being less intense.
An imperfect analogy here could be climate change - CO2 is only responsible for like 10-20% of the greenhouse effect, with most likely the majority of the effect being caused by water vapour. Yet, most of the focus is on reducing CO2 emissions as opposed to trying to reduce water emissions - because water content in the atmosphere is more of a responding variable instead of a controlled variable. I think a lot of people believe things like the wealth gap between whites and blacks, poorer educational outcomes for black populations, and even things like cultural distrust of authority are also responding variables instead of strictly controlled variables within society - even if they have a massive impact on social outcomes for black people (analogous to water vapour as a greenhouse gas).
I think some of the disagreements on how the problems should be tackled are not only based on what you believe is the greater contributor to the problem (back to the climate change analogy, which is the worst contributor, transportation emissions vs. power plant emissions vs. agricultural emissions?), but also what is the most feasible approach to fixing the problem (is blockading pipelines an effective approach for reducing emissions since it only requires a small population to buy in to the cause, or do we need society to broadly agree to accept the sacrifices required to reduce emissions? are people taking personal responsibility for reducing emissions going to get us where we need to be, or is legislation needed to achieve what’s in society’s best interests?).
Would you ask this same question to a person of Asian or Hispanic descent?
The reason I am asking is because frankly, I think Elliott is to stuck back in the past of everything being black vs white. What I am seeing in the schools nowadays I worked at and my family works at it’s becoming more black vs hispanic or asian than anything. Sometimes they get along, sometimes they dont.
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That’s fine, but I don’t think that’s the most reasonable interpretation of the question. “Would you be happy to receive the same treatment that our black citizens do in this society” is not the same as “would you trade places with a random black person” - it’s closer to “would you be happy changing your skin colour to black and otherwise keeping your life as it is”. I believe you have indicated that you would have no problem with this as you believe you would likely receive the same treatment if you were black as if you were white (post #381), but urbanredneck2 has not really responded substantially to it (post #358 is probably the closest, where he thinks that “There have been times in my life if I was a black person with the same talents and academics I have I know I could have gotten a better job” - but not stating whether there are any situations where he thinks having black skin could possibly result in worse outcomes.
[/quote]I dont know how I really can answer your question in way you would agree with.
Yes, I agree their are some times when I have been around some racist white people that a black or brown person might be treated badly but those are very rare. Plus if anything happened I’d be the first to jump in and help.
What more can I say or do? I am only responsible for my own feelings and reactions. I cannot change everyone.
It’s the same way their are places and being around certain people where being white could be dangerous.
In London a Black person walking into an office building was told to use the loading dock.
The building housed the offices of Vogue.
The person was the editor. I bet he was not shabbily dressed.
What’s wrong with “I recognize that many black people are treated badly, in most cases, worse than white people are treated. I will work to try to change that”?
They fired the guy, of course. But do you think a white person going into that building would ever be told to go to the loading dock?
You obviously deny there is even a problem. Now, most people would happily trade places with this guy. He is famous - in those circles. He is making a bundle of money no doubt. He has influence. If he was white no problem. But trading with the person as he is and getting hassled by two bit racist security guards? Maybe, but maybe not.
For instance, if he was white and had a nice car, cops would no doubt think it was cool. Being Black and having a nice car, maybe the cops would assume it was stolen and pull him over. See?
You think the only obligation a speaker has is to make her audience feel good about themselves? Maybe it is better to wake them up about the world as it really is. It is the old “racism is dead since we elected a Black president thing” isn’t it. See how that worked out.
But lets look at your story above which YOU CLAIM shows systematic racism.
In your above article the security guard in question was an outside contractor. He probably had little training and didnt know who the guy was. Whatever. he was just a low paid, 3rd party contractor temp. Now the editor got pissed at him and said it was all racism. However can you PROVE that their was a rule the man followed that exclusively target black workers?
Whats MISSING in the article is any information from the guard. What were his motives? What was his side of the story?
There is a HUGE problem when we dont get the full story.
Again, where in the article is the guards side of the story? Was he told to tell him to use a freight elevator? Did he have any training on say checking badges or ID?
Yes, it might have been an issue of racism and therefore needs to be called out but until then I want to see some other insight.
Oh, good grief. Nowhere did it say it was this guy’s first day on the job. Of course he didn’t know who the editor was - even a total cretin doesn’t give shit to the big boss.
Did he tell everyone to use the freight elevator? I doubt Vogue occupied the entire building, so there likely would be no id checking at the desk. And if there was, you don’t tell the person who doesn’t belong to use the freight elevator.
I’m sure you heard of the Central Park incident, where a Black guy asked a woman to put her dog on its leash (as required by park rules) and she called 911 and said that she feared for her life. (He was planning to give the dog a treat.) Oh, but he was riffraff - Harvard graduate and member of the board of the Audubon Society.
You think someone would call the police on your or on me if we did the same thing? The point is that being powerful and successful doesn’t stop this kind of thing from happening - but it at least increases the consequences on the racist idiots who do it.
As I’ve said before, when I was in college in Cambridge I had long hair and drove a big car, and I got stopped all the time when I went over to Boston. But the cop, seeing I was white and maybe someone whose family had money (incorrect) showed me a modicum of respect.
That’s white privilege at work. I realize I benefited from it. You obviously don’t.
Oh, and seeing both sides? I grew up in a racist environment, even in NY, even when my mother enjoyed freaking out the people in Georgia in 1944 by drinking from the blacks only water fountain. The other side is the assumption that a black guy is up to no good. I understand it - I have to fight it down. I don’t think I’ve ever been blatantly racist - but I might be wrong - but I sure have been in my heart. So have almost all of us. Some of us recognize it.
Ok, the news reports people doing stupid or racist things but they seldom report when people are being nice. People do bad things. We all know that.
BUT, that is not a proof of structural or institutional racism. For that we need an actual law. No longer do we have laws telling blacks to sit in the back of the bus or require them to eat at separate lunch counters.
Oh good grief how many times do we have to go over that.
I am proud of my life, my family, my house, where I am at in general and I wouldnt want to take a chance on something less. Why is that so hard to figure out?
Of course, you will just call me and others “racist”.
Oh, and seeing both sides? I grew up in a racist environment, even in NY, even when my mother enjoyed freaking out the people in Georgia in 1944 by drinking from the blacks only water fountain. The other side is the assumption that a black guy is up to no good. I understand it - I have to fight it down. I don’t think I’ve ever been blatantly racist - but I might be wrong - but I sure have been in my heart. So have almost all of us. Some of us recognize it.
[/quote]Interesting story. Know what? My mother said the same once when she was a little girl at about the same time. She was from the north and at that time, had never seen a black person. Well she said they were in some town and their was this line to use a water fountain so she saw another one labeled “colored” and not knowing better, went over to drink at that one (she thought it would be colored water BTW). Anyways she said to everyone, “see its ordinary water”.
But know what? We dont have those anymore. Well sort of now colleges have to have “safe spaces” away from white people.
Now who was it who came up with the idea of segregated areas?
It’s good you recognize that your own racism and try to fight it, urbanredneck2. You were raised in a very racist area, you say. Surrounded and steeped in that racism, you inevitably absorbed some of it. You recognize this and that racism has been all around us even after segregation was abolished. And you’re correct that everyone has some level of racism. That’s because racism is systemic in the United States (and yes, other countries, too) and is therefore unavoidable. THAT’S what’s meant by systemic racism, which you seem to confuse with legal segregation, aka Jim Crow Laws.
The difference is that not everyone is equally racist. There’s a tendency on the part of some folks to assume everybody feels like they do on the inside but some are better at hiding it than others. (I’m not saying this is necessarily you.) This is not true. There’s also a tendency in many folks to think, “If I don’t see it, it’s not happening.” For instance, if you don’t notice that Black shoppers are more likely to be suspected as shoplifters, you might conclude those who say they are are wrong. Your not noticing doesn’t make you bad: you’re probably focused on what you have to buy, and after all, as a white guy, you’re not getting followed around the store, so you don’t need to be aware of such things. But refusing to believe the people who have monitored, tracked, experienced, documented that this is not uncommon WOULD be wrong.
It’s time to recognize that racism can be so subtle, you, as a white guy who’s never been subjected to it, don’t notice it. It’s time to become more aware. It’s time to stop being defensive. It’s time for humility, to open eyes and ears to people who are trying to explain the subtle stuff that’s been hidden in plain sight.
Yes, things are better than when there were Jim Crow laws. But not good enough. And Jim Crow was better than slavery, which was hardly a reason not to do anything about it.
As for the first part, I’m at risk for the virus, but haven’t gotten it. Neither have any of my at-risk friends or my wife. That must mean that Covid isn’t an issue any more, right?
