Japan - USA Olympic Final

[happycamper_5]

@Svejk_1

RedFury is a Madrid fan, so clearly he hates football more than anyone in this thread. Still, I think it’s safe to say that the top male players are way, way more skilled than the top female players are. It’s pretty obvious when you watch women play that the level of play is not exceedingly high, and when you think about it, there’s a pretty straightforward reason for that.

Think about all the 10 year old kids alive in the world today. Of the boys, a massive percentage are playing football, the world over - and they are encouraged to continue doing so both by the cultures they find themselves in, and by the investments that are being made. The top European teams scout boys that age and bring them and their families to Europe.

At the same time, no one is interested in investing in girls or looking for talented girl football players. In most cases, if they did have talent, either there’s an active prejudice against girls playing sports, or football is seen as so much of a men’s game that girls don’t get into it. Only in North America is football predominantly seen as a women’s sport, elsewhere it’s pretty unusual for women to play football even if they’re into sports.

All in all, for men’s football, the pool from which talent is drawn, and the dedication with which it is sought out by those interested in finding it, is just enormous - arguably the largest in the world for any sport and any gender. The pool from which women’s talent is drawn is quite small and not a lot of people are interested in finding it.

All the women that are in the Olympic football event are talented, skilled players - compared to me. But in reality, and this is not about male chauvinism, there’s no way in which you can seriously call female soccer players good as compared to their male counterparts. That does not mean the games can’t be exciting, since excitement is not strictly about the skill that is displayed but also about what’s at stake, about last minute saves and goals and other things like that. But it does mean that if you don’t really care about either team very much and you want to see a bunch of highly talented people play football, men’s football is going to be your best bet.

Which is why no one who really knows anything about the game would compare male and female players in terms of their skill. I don’t believe anyone here has done that, except those who feel the need to point out that the men are better players. Since the point of a statement like that is always ‘female players aren’t as good as men because they’re not men’, yeah, it’s due to male chauvinism. All of this hijack comes from an innocent comment by Airman Doors, a comment which no one can argue with unless you’d been sitting on his couch, watching soccer with him for “years.”

Seriously, I’d thought we’d gotten past this already. Some of the most traditional (and chauvinistic) men I know were able to watch women’s Olympic football this year with nothing but positive comments about what they saw, including the skill of the players involved.

Personally, I thought Solo’s save was a good save that you expect your keeper to make because the Japanese player telegraphed her shot. It was an emotional moment for those of us who gave a damn, but still, not her best save of the evening, in my opinion. That would be the tip over the crossbar in the 18th(?)minute.

[Svejk_1]

@happycamper_5

Since the point of a statement like that is always ‘female players aren’t as good as men because they’re not men’, yeah, it’s due to male chauvinism.

Actually, I took pains to make it clear that that is not what I think. The men are better because behind them there is a vast machine that is out to find male talent and train it extensively, as well as a major cultural impetus to get into football, neither of which exist for women. If Lionel Messi had been a girl, nobody would have gone to the trouble of moving him and his family to Spain.

[Man_from_Mars]

Funny how some people can watch and enjoy a contest between two evenly matched teams. And others have to justify why men are this and women are that.

[happycamper_5]

@Svejk_1

Actually, I took pains to make it clear that that is not what I think. The men are better because behind them there is a vast machine that is out to find male talent and train it extensively, as well as a major cultural impetus to get into football, neither of which exist for women. If Lionel Messi had been a girl, nobody would have gone to the trouble of moving him and his family to Spain.

And how is that not in keeping with what I said? You’re saying there are things about football that are favorable to men and unfavorable to women, yes? In that case, if the female players were male, they would be better because they would have access to the more favorable conditions surrounding football. So, one reason they’re not as good as the men is because they’re women and, consequently, have many factors working against them. It’s not the truth of our statements that I call chauvinistic, but rather the need of some to point it out whenever a comment is made on the skill of women footballers. (And, keep in mind, I’m not calling you chauvinistic.)

I will, however, argue that this is incorrect:

That does not mean the games can’t be exciting, since excitement is not strictly about the skill that is displayed but also about what’s at stake, about last minute saves and goals and other things like that. But it does mean that if you don’t really care about either team very much and you want to see a bunch of highly talented people play football, men’s football is going to be your best bet.

If you want to see highly talented people play football, watch football at its highest respective level. International competitions, both men’s and women’s, is a good place to start.

[Snarky_Kong]

@happycamper_5

I will, however, argue that this is incorrect:

Which part of that is incorrect?

[RedFury]

@Snarky_Kong

Which part of that is incorrect?

Best ask the Super-Mod that gave me a Yellow for bringing facts into the equation.

[Snarky_Kong]

@RedFury

Best ask the Super-Mod that gave me a Yellow for bringing facts into the equation.

Yeah, that’s why you got a warning. We hate facts here.

[RickJay]

@RedFury

Best ask the Super-Mod that gave me a Yellow for bringing facts into the equation.

You were warned for derailing the discussion and acting like a jerk. You’re doing it again. The topic of the thread is the women’s Olympic soccer final; spinoff discussions on women’s soccer as a whole are fine and appropriate spinoffs of such a topic, **but entering the thread soley to crap on women’s soccer as a sport **(as well as other posters for enjoying it) is threadshitting and jerkish behaviour, both against the rules. Whatever facts you presented are irrelevant.

So you won’t continue threadshitting, and that’s not a request, because the next card won’t be yellow.

If you disagree, please contact a moderator or start a thread in ATMB. Do not continue the matter here.

To other posters, please leave the moderation to the mods. Thanks much.

RickJay
Moderator

[Max_Torque]

@Knorf

I’ll not speak for Airman Doors, but I will say that as much as I love soccer played by men, women’s soccer does offer an overall cleaner game with fewer fouls, almost no diving, and a lot less whinging on the field in general, and all this nowadays without sacrificing anything in the way of athletic excitement.

Or as I saw it put recently: the women play like women, and the men play like girls.

[Yookeroo]

Maybe RedFury can enlighten us on whether men are faster swimmers than women. Or whether NBA players are superior to WNBA players? Is there a female sprinter who can compete with Usain Bolt? Please, RedFury, help us figure this out.

[rocking_chair]

@Autolycus

Apropos of nothing, but how cool of a name is Hope Solo?

I mean, just think about the usefulness of force push for a goal-keeper!

“this is not the net you want.” “move along to the other side.”

[Gangster_Octopus]

@RedFury

Meanwhile, in the real world:

Casillas

Buffon

Yup: “all this nowadays without sacrificing anything in the way of athletic excitement” :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

The real world? What the fuck does that mean?

[Knorf]

He was just incensed by my comment that women’s world cup matches don’t lose anything in terms in athletic excitement. Which is maybe slightly hyperbolic, but not much.

Anyway, I think he posted those youtube videos of great saves by two of the world’s greatest male goal keepers to “prove” that women (specifically Hope Solo) aren’t as athletic as men (specifically Gianluigi Buffon). Like, wow, really? Who knew. Nonetheless, when a woman makes a spectacular, leaping save, it’s still spectacular, whether or not some man might be able to leap slightly farther.

Anyway, the excitement of a soccer match requires more than individually spectacular performances. If individual showboating was ll a game needed, every NBA game would be like the All-Star game.

Soccer is about teamwork, tactics, individual creativity, and yes athleticism. The women on the top soccer teams are damn good. They might not be quite as fast as the men, or have quite the same ultimate degree of fancy ball control, and maybe can’t jump quite as high, but they lose nothing in terms of teamwork, tactics, and individual creativity, and very little (maybe 5-10%) in athleticism. Combine that with less diving, less whinging, and fewer ugly fouls, and you have some really, really enjoyable football. RedFury is apparently enraged at the idea. Old ways die hard.

But really, if you don’t think women can be damn impressive athletes, just look at Olympic and WR results. Sure the best women are a bit slower than the best men, but it’s not a gigantic difference. For example:

100m, world record for men: 9.58 seconds (Usain Bolt)
100m, world record for women: 10.45 seconds (Florence Griffith Joyner)

(Note that a lot of men in 100m events around the world cannot run it as fast as FloJo did back in 1988!)

.87 second difference, or a little over 8%. That’s really not huge. And soccer isn’t about racing–all in all, tactics and creativity win matches more than fast sprint times do.

In other words, the 8-10% less athleticism you find in pure speed or strength events is easily mitigated by other athletic factors that women have.

I stand by my comment. The women’s teams are impressive, and I am no casual football fan.

None of this affects my love for the game, for the men’s teams, and for Arsenal. Aug. 18: first Premiere League match against Sunderland, who is going down in flames. ARSENAL TILL I DIE!

[RickJay]

@Knorf

Soccer is about teamwork, tactics, individual creativity, and yes athleticism. The women on the top soccer teams are damn good. They might not be quite as fast as the men, or have quite the same ultimate degree of fancy ball control, and maybe can’t jump quite as high, but they lose nothing in terms of teamwork, tactics, and individual creativity, and very little (maybe 5-10%) in athleticism.

I’m not sure how one quantifies athleticism, but “very little” is certainly not true by any reasonable definition thereof. The difference in raw athletic ability is genuinely enormous. The U.S. women’s national team would be thoroughly humiliated by a men’s team. (Incidentally, it appears RedFury believes you were actually saying a women’s team would beat Real Madrid.) If the difference were small, then the most elite players of the international teams would be able to make the grade in second-tier leagues, like MLS. They do not, because they aren’t even close to being physically capable of it.

I agree, though, that it’s a more entertaining thing to watch because there isn’t the incessant diving and whining, and yet it’s very well played soccer. In this respect, women’s soccer is far ahead of, say, women’s hockey. I like watching our women win gold medals, but the quality of play in women’s hockey is so starkly inferior that it actually affects the way the game is played, and so definitely detracts from my enjoyment of the spectacle.

[Snarky_Kong]

Knorf, stop while you’re ahead.

[Knorf]

@RickJay

(Incidentally, it appears RedFury believes you were actually saying a women’s team would beat Real Madrid.)

Well, that’s pretty darn unlikely, obviously. I never claimed the women’s teams were as good as comparable level men’s teams.

@Snarky_Kong

Knorf, stop while you’re ahead.

Why? What do I have to lose?

@RickJay

I agree, though, that it’s a more entertaining thing to watch because there isn’t the incessant diving and whining, and yet it’s very well played soccer. In this respect, women’s soccer is far ahead of, say, women’s hockey. I like watching our women win gold medals, but the quality of play in women’s hockey is so starkly inferior that it actually affects the way the game is played, and so definitely detracts from my enjoyment of the spectacle.

Yes, I agree. Women’s soccer has come a long ways, that’s really my main point. So what if a top league man’s team would paste our women’s international team? The matches are still fun to watch and are good football.

[Knorf]

I mean, hell, how many men’s teams are consistently at Real Madrid’s level? Barcelona FC, yep. Who else? Not Chelsea. Maybe Manchester United, but … nah. Not Juventus, not AC Milan, not Inter, not Dortmund, not Bayern … No one in the western hemisphere as far I as know …

Also, Real Madrid would paste every international men’s side with ease. Except they couldn’t play Spain because half the team is Real and the other half is Barça anyway.

Does mean those other sides aren’t worth watching and supporting? Or that if you’re a fan of any team besides Real or Barça, you don’t know anything about football?

I also enjoy the MLS, though admittedly the play is rather not quite on the level of the Premiere League, which I enjoy … yes, more. Should I not enjoy MLS play?

So why single out being a fan of the women’s international teams as evidence of football ignorance?

[Knorf]

By the way, yes I’m aware that Bayern beat Real on penalties in this year’s UEFA Champion’s League. I watched both legs of the contest.

[Snarky_Kong]

@Knorf

Why? What do I have to lose?

Credibility?

So what if a top league man’s team would paste our women’s international team? The matches are still fun to watch and are good football.

It’s not just top men’s teams. It’s u-16 boys club teams.

Lots of people, myself included, love watching the USWNT. Isn’t that enough? Why do you have to try to compare them to the men. Red Fury was absolutely correct in what he said, he was just being a dick about it. There are lots of things to love about watching them play, the objective level of play is not one of them.

[Max_Torque]

@Snarky_Kong

There are lots of things to love about watching them play, the objective level of play is not one of them.

And the top reason I like to watch them play is that you don’t see BS like this or this.