Amen.
Well, there you go. See, I didn’t see anything like this during the women’s Olympics playoff matches. Not one.
And the thing is that the diving problem in men’s soccer is not something that was just dreamed up in this thread; it is a common discussion during every major tournament. Search on Google for “Football diving problem” and you’ll find a lot of serious discussion and general agreement that it’s a matter of concern. Nor is this merely a cosmetic matter; it upsets the flow of the game and creates the potential for matches to be decided not by skill but by penalties and thespianism.
I don’t know why the same stuff doesn’t happen during women’s matches.
Meh.
That’s where I disagree. Strongly. They’re better than that.
Because we were talking about how much we had enjoyed the Olympic gold medal final when RedFury, who hadn’t even seen any of the final match, charged in and said that if you think the women’s game is any good, you know nothing about football. And I made the slightly hyperbolic comment that you lose nothing in terms of athletic excitement, because tactics, team play, and creativity are more vital to a match’s excitement than whether a man can run slightly faster, or jump slightly higher, or slam into someone else slightly harder.
Note that I never said that the women individually were as athletic as the men. But why is it that people must come flying in with great indignation to accost fans of women’s sports with “hur, men are better, if you understood the sport, you’d watch the men.” I do watch the men, and lots of it. Premiere League, multiple matches, every Saturday and Sunday. Lots of MLS. UEFA and CONCACAF Champions Leagues. World Cup. Euros. Olympics.
Well, it could be worse. It could be women’s basketball. You wouldn’t believe how often people like RedFury feel the overwhelming need to point out that women can’t dunk, and that makes the sport totally inferior.
Watching the top women play level against other top women I truly believe does not lose that much in the way of excitement of football from the men. It’s not like watching U16, and frankly I enjoyed last year’s women’s world cup and these Olympics rather more than the last year’s U20 world cup. I also didn’t find the men’s Olympic matches this year to be particularly superior to the women’s (the Olympic men’s of course being mainly U23). YMMV. The World Cup is pretty fuckin’ awesome, but lots of the matches are diving snooze fests. Everyone knows this.
That wasn’t speculation on my part. The USWNT often plays youth teams. They lose. Their skill might be better, but the athletic gap is just humongous.
I believe that they have scrimmaged the US U-17 National Team and lost to them. Not some random club team.
Well, ok. I’d like to see a cite for “lose often,” but whatever. Losing a scrimmage to the US U17 national team isn’t huge evidence. Anyway, that’s not the point. The point is, watching them play level with other women, the most important components of the game that make it exciting are still intact. My impression is that the current team would do better than you suggest, but I admit I’ve never seen them play a youth team.
They get crushed by the u-17 boys team, their losses to the local elite club teams are closer.
Yes, it was something like 8-2. Poking around I do see some losses to youth club teams, too. Point taken. It sounds like the speed of the boys is just too fast for the women.
Anyway, the point isn’t that the women could hang with men’s teams; that’s an argument I wasn’t trying to make, and isn’t something I ever claimed. I am slightly surprised they wouldn’t do better against U17 teams, maybe I shouldn’t be: physically, a lot of those boys aren’t far from adults and they are fast.
Haha, I love football but I can’t help but dislike the USA women’s national soccer team. I guess it just irritated me watching them at the Olympic games. The commentary were saying how they were such a happy team playing together but every time it cut to their manager she was screaming obscenities at them. I understand this is a part of football, but this coupled with how ball-greedy a lot of their players are just made me dislike them. Not to mention, I think it was against Japan, Japan pulled one back and the striker went to get the ball and bring it to the spot to commence play. Hope Solo deliberately picks up the ball and won’t give it to her, holding onto it to waste time. I guess it just annoyed me how the commentators didn’t even mention it, too busy describing the incredible women’s football team. Here’s hoping she doesn’t give another interview about who she slept with after winning this time. Also Carli Lloyd’s face just irritates me haha. When it was clear USA had won I couldn’t bare to watch another second.
You weren’t watching the USA team, obviously. Or maybe you were but didn’t know which manager was which. Pia Sundhage is well known as one of, if not the, most laid back and happy-go-lucky manager in the women’s game. I watched several of the games and not once did I see her yelling at her team.
Yeah it was Pia Sundhage. I wasn’t trying to take anything away from her credibility but everytime the camera panned to her she was mouthing “Urghh f— blah blah”. She is a great manager in womens football but I guess the commentary just annoyed me a little haha, no disrespect intended.
OK, I’ll take your word for it, but every time I saw her on camera (except when USA scored a goal) she was in her seat in the third row with hers arms folded across her chest.
They aren’t. Several years ago they scrimmaged my nephew’s team and it ended 0-0. My nephew was 14 (maybe even 13) at the time. Yeah, it was a very elite team (CalSouth ODP), but the women weren’t better than these young teens. (My nephew had the unenviable task of marking Abby…this particular female was better than this particular make teen :)).
Uncle! Anyway, I never claimed the women’s national team could hang with the men.
As an American but huge football fan (go Spurs!) I 100% believe that the flopping and diving that goes on in the major men’s game is what kills football’s chances of ever catching on in the US. Look at the -actual- violence that goes in in American Football - and especially ice hockey, where being called a diver is one of the worst insults in the sport (Crosby was accused of it early in his NHL career).
At the very top of the sport, women’s football is of course filled with top talent, but more importantly the teams are extremely evenly matched. If the US and Japan played 10 games at a neutral site, I think they may well split 5-5 - the teams are that evenly matched.
Finally, requisite Youtube video here:
I suspect women’s soccer has a greater disparity between the very elite players and the slightly less elite than men’s does. The difference even within the US national team is remarkably striking (no pun intended.) The speed of the players is generally good but not men-level and then Alex Morgan gets the ball and holy CHRIST the woman can run.
Logically, this is to be expected. A characteristic of competitive sport is that the higher the calibre of play, the less the visible and statistical difference you will find between players at its elite levels.
As well as Japan has played the USA the last two big games, I disagree. The Americans are far better, IMHO, and Japan was lucky to win at the WWC and the 2-1 score of the gold medal game was very complimentary to them; they played well at the end of the game once they went down 2-0 but up to that point were not up to the task.
I agree with RockJay; the US women beat Japan more often than 50% of the time when you include “friendlies.”
Yes, hindsight being 20/20, I admit to coming off as pretty crass here. So for that, apologies to those that felt offended.
That said, what raised my hackles were some of the posts ragging on the men’s game and positing that teams such as Madrid or Barça would: “If today’s game were played exactly the same way but the teams were Barca and Real instead, they’d have run out of stretchers in the first half.” Which, as I’ve said and has now been repeated in many forms in this thread, is simply beyond ridiculous.
As was this post by Knorf which was sufficiently refuted by RickJay & others that I need not touch on it. Quite misinformed is all.
So yeah, in closing, my bad for taking things so literally, but as I also said in the ATMB thread, it does get tiring to read, over and over, posts taking the men’s game to task for at its highest level I find it poetry in motion. Choose to watch whatever you will, and enjoy. And once more congrats to the US for the Gold medal @ The Olympics.
BTW, I am too annoyed by many a flop we get treated to in the men’s game (Busquets, as good a footballer as he is, is particularly irritating at it. And yes, I also admit our CR7 is pretty good at it too – though he takes his share of punishment). But by the same token not everyone’s a diver, football can be – and often is – a brutal game.
Diving and making the most out of challenges has been a fundamental part of the game in La Liga and Serie A. Most players are told that if they get clipped to go down and make the most of it, if you don’t someone in the other team will. It’s unfortunate but it’s always been a part of the game, look up Jurgen Klinsmann. To compare football to American football is just dumb they are two entirely different sports, different rules, different protection etc.
What you don’t seem to understand, is that many if not all of us who enjoy the women’s game and it find exciting would totally agree with the statement. Examples like watching Zidane when he was at his best, or Brazil when they won the WC in 2002 (among other times), or Spain in this year’s Euros when they made Italy look like a Serie B team.
RedFury, you don’t even watch women’s soccer at the highest level at all; you didn’t watch the women’s gold medal match, or, one assumes, any of the qualifying, semi-, or quarterfinal matches, or the women’s World Cup last year. Bottom line: you don’t speak from knowledge of having watched any of it. You’re just “well the men are better and if you think the women are good you know nothing about football.” I’m sorry, but the latter part of that is utter crap.
Yep. (Aside: by og, “footie” is a stupid word for a sport that’s “poetry in motion.”) Not interested. Don’t know. Assume from a chauvinistic perspective.
Here we go.
You speak from the scornful pride of not having watched the match everyone else was speaking about. What knowledge do you have, when you didn’t see any of it? It’s basically something like “women aren’t as fast as men, so I assume the matches aren’t really exciting or good ‘footie’ and people who say otherwise have no football knowledge.” Sorry, pal, but I do have football knowledge, and I do genuinely find the women’s game to be exiting, and, yes, good football.
Oh, by the way, just posting some links to YouTube compilations of a couple of the men whom everyone knows are two of greatest keepers in the world is not an argument. NO ONE claimed Hope Solo was a great as Casillas or Buffon. NO ONE claimed the women’s teams were better than men’s teams. I said “nothing is lost in terms of athletic excitement,” which to the extent of understanding the context – i.e. that I’m NOT claiming women can achieve what men can individually in terms of pure athletic achievement – is true if a bit hyperbolic, which I acknowledged. Good tactics? The best women’s teams have it. Good teamwork? Check. Creativity? Absolutely. Can the men run faster? Yes. Jump higher? Yes. Hit harder? Yes. DUH.
But if you have “knowledge of football,” than you know as well as I do that the excitement of a match depends a lot of tactics, teamwork, and individual creativity. Spectacular plays are very cool to watch (such as Rooney’s spectacular overhead kick last year against Man City), but you don’t count of that happening regularly to win matches. But check it out, women can make strikes like that, too. And when they do, it’s still spectacular, even though they’re women.