Jared Loughner’s Politics – What Matters and What Doesn’t?

(NOTE: Please see Marley23’s closing admonishment in the “Second Amendment Solutions” thread. I’d prefer to keep this discussion on topic and avoid insults, so I’m posting it here instead of the BBQ Pit, but if the strong feelings at play corrupt our dialogue, I’ll ask the mods to close it instead of moving it. Thanks.)

In the discussions we’re having here and those I’ve seen other places on the web, there seems to be resistance to the idea that prominent right wing ‘vitriolic rhetoric’ (as Sherriff Dupnik has put it) is even marginally connected to Loughner’s actions. I’ll stay away from arguments about whether the rhetoric is equivalent on “both sides” and whether liberals like me “want" to blame this on conservatives but I’d like to discuss some of the arguments I’ve seen pushing back against criticism of the rhetoric relative to the Arizona shootings.

To me, it doesn’t seem a large leap to presume that such rhetoric will if relentlessly pushed by popular figures result in violence against representatives of the targeted group. But let’s look at the main arguments against my point of view, or specifically denying the Arizona killings as a valid example of the consequences that presumption warns against.

“The shooting spree wasn’t politically motivated.” Let’s put this one to bed right now; Loughner murdered a US judge and attempted to murder a US legislator. If he’d included a federal LEO he would’ve struck against all three branches of government. If as seems very likely the shooter selected his primary target Giffords based on his beliefs about her effect and influence on society as a whole rather than directly on him, this makes the attack an explicitly political action. It may have been motivated by delusional beliefs, which may have little resemblance to any mainstream ideology, but politics doesn’t evaporate outside of established party doctrine.

“Loughner isn’t right wing / his politics are indecipherable, therefore right wing rhetoric isn’t a factor.” I propose that the specifics of Loughner’s beliefs are only important to the degree that they are paranoid, violent and extreme. In fact, the apparent randomness of Loughner’s political ramblings makes it more likely that any particular target of apocalyptic rhetoric would present to Loughner as a threat to his own imagined universe. Crazies are quite capable of selecting your well illuminated boogey man as their own, and providing their idiosyncratic pretzel logic to justify that. Yes, they can also co-opt your discarded grass clippings into their delusional fears, but unless their paranoia has the same kind of specificity towards your lawn waste as your rhetoric does toward your object(s) of political hatred, IME they’re less likely to see it as a threat.

“You can’t prove the rhetoric motivated Loughner.” This would be a good argument against charging Sharron Angle or Sarah Palin with conspiracy in the murders. It’s not a good argument when used to counter condemnation of their rhetoric as a [non criminal] incitement to violence among extremists and lunatics. And this is really the core of the outrage. The rhetoric from the extreme American right over the past couple of decades has become increasingly eliminationist in tone and apocalyptic in content.

After years of conservative pundits and pols describing liberal political philosophy as immoral, its adherents as enemies and its elimination as necessary to the preservation of everything true patriots hold dear, I don’t find it a ridiculous notion that some individuals would be so influenced by this propaganda as to take action against those vividly painted threats to their way of life.

Jared Loughner’s favourite books include Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf and his rhetoric sounds more Libertarian/anti-government in general.

One of the core liberal beliefs is that we’ll all get kinder and gentler if we can just figger out which free speech to outlaw or control, and surely one of the reassurances such a good liberal needs is to outlaw or somehow control public vitriol because it motivates nutcases.

Public vitriol most certainly does motivate nutcases, but I sorta think they start out nutty and then find some trigger, whether it’s ant-spray in the neighborhood or comments in the media they don’t like.

My general impression is that you are a nutcase first and then you find the right reason to act on your nuttiness.

In any case, we need to get this particular fellow executed as soon as possible, and I’ll be very disappointed if any liberals come to his aid and try to get him life instead. I might even get enraged over it…

Which argument in the OP are you pursuing or refuting with this, Qin? Your post seems to pertain to the “not a right winger” argument, but I’m not sure if you’re offering your information as further data or in support of the argument.

We’re discussing the suspect’s political views, thus it is appropriate to state what he has actually said himself.

Not being able to prove something and not yet even having any reason to think it are entirely different things.

My argument, and many others, isn’t that vociferous rhetoric didn’t set this guy off, it’s that no one had presented any particular reason to think it. That the Sheriff indicated it as a factor makes it seem plausible that Loughner may have indeed referenced Palin, Beck, etc. as influences. We don’t know that, but it does at least at last give reason to think along those lines. Nothing in the previous thread mentioned the Sheriff and what he said, at least not up to the point where I lost interest. Either because the Sheriff hadn’t yet said it, or because they didn’t know how to provide a cite, or (more likely) simply thought that people weren’t honestly asking for a cite.

To say that all of the violent right-wing rhetoric motivated Laughner assumes that he took in all of that rhetoric - in other words, that he watched FOX, that he watched Beck’s show or read Sarah Palin’s book or whatever.

The only place I have heard all of these examples of violent rhetoric from right-wing politicians is here on this board. I don’t watch the news regularly, and I don’t read books about contemporary politics. If it was not for the SDMB or for talking to people who do follow politics, I would never have been aware of these statements by politicians about “2nd Amendment Solutions” or crosshairs or whatever.

People are talking about the influence of Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin as if it is floating around like the air that we breathe. As if it is impossible to live life without being affected by it.

This just isn’t the case.

True enough. I’ve never heard either of them speak (outside of Palin’s VP nominee debate with Biden) and as someone fairly political, you’re probably more likely to avoid a political speaker whom you have no interest in than the reverse.

As a liberal, that’s news to me, but to be very clear, I do not call for outlawing rhetoric. I’m suggesting that we should all pressure our own to be responsible and avoid violent rhetoric because of its consequences.

This is also my impression.

I don’t understand why we should be expected to change our principles based on special circumstance. IOW, why is it not objectionable to you if I oppose the DP in general, but it would enrage you if I oppose it for this shooter?

? I have reasons to see the possible connection, and in my opinion it’s an obvious viable theory to list among others. You may not agree it’s the best working theory, but if you admit that provocative rhetoric is provocative, then you can’t deny I have a reason for my theory.

Except that there’s never been a historic lone gunman who went out killing because of violent rhetoric.

While something may be theoretically possible, if it’s item ten thousand of all possibilities, I can’t say that I see much point in bringing it up until you’ve exhausted the 9,999 possibilities that are more likely.

The most likeliest explanation for this guy is still that he’s an anti-government nutter who chose his target based on proximity. He lived in the area, saw that a high-ranking government official was going to be at his local supermarket, and went over to kill her. He didn’t choose her. She was simply a handily available target at a time when he wanted to go out killing people.

Why? The fellow has been detained safely, and it’s extremely unlikely that he will escape custody - if there’s one thing we’re good at, it’s incarcerating people. We don’t need to kill this man to ensure the public’s safety - and as much as I despise him, killing him simply because it would suit me to see him dead leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Nor would killing him be likely to deter other nutcases. Nuts, by definition, aren’t rational.

I don’t see a point to the death penalty in general, and I don’t see anything in this case to make me change my mind. That said, I certainly hope Loughner spends the rest of his life in prison - and thanks to his relative youth, that could be a very long time indeed.

Until more information is available about the shooter this is the most reasonable approach.

What are you counting as “cause” here? Violent rhetoric has probably never converted someone to a new and violent point of view, but that’s not what I’m theorizing, and I haven’t seen anyone suggest that’s the case for Loughner. But we’ve definitely seen extremist rhetoric stir up violence, including ‘lone gunmen’. Dr. George Tiller was gunned down by an anti-abortionist immersed in the violent rhetoric of his group. Sure, the language he heard daily didn’t cause Roeder to shoot, but it had to have egged him on and helped him come to the decision to act. There are numerous other examples of rhetoric stirring violent action, throughout history. It’s one of the purposes of rhetoric.

You seem pretty confident in your theory. I think it’s possible, and I even think opportunity was a bigger factor than motive, but I disagree that this discounts the importance to the shooter of the rw rhetoric against her.

No, but presuming that Loughner’s assassination attempt is a result of certain rhetoricians is a large leap.

It isn’t remarkable for such a random political philosophy to target specific targets of apocalyptic rhetoric, because most of the people he shot never have been. They were bystanders, only vaguely (literally proximally) associated with anything remotely democratic.

and honestly, I wouldn’t even say his beliefs are violent or extreme- just insane.

Of course it’s a good argument, when people are using this incident as an example of rhetoric-incited violence amongst extremists and lunatics. Why wouldn’t it be?

The only thing that really matters is that some people needlessly lost their lives because of the acts of one guy. I don’t think he was politically motivated, however, it might be a good time for folks to sit down and re-examine some of their rhetoric before something happens again and they’re directly the cause of it because they incited folks to do something.
I don’t see how (given the evidence so far) it’s politically motivated.

Loughner is probably a paranoid delusional type and I’m sure that in his mind he was acting in accordance with a political ethos. At least that’s what I assume given he targeted a member of congress and it wasn’t a random mall shooting or something of that nature.

Words have consequences, no one should deny that. I’m all for calling Sarah Palin stupid, and maybe Glenn Beck as well (my exposure to him is almost exclusively through this message board, so I don’t know much about him), but where I draw the line is any suggestion that their words should have criminal penalties just because they incited a lunatic. Whether or not words incite lunatics shouldn’t be the standard for criminalizing speech.

Something I wonder is how much exposure this guy has from Glenn Beck and such types. I’ll be honest, I very much get the impression that TV pundits, talk radio hosts, and et cetera are more a force amongst people in the over thirty crowd (probably more like the over forty crowd.) A lot of people in my peer group (the over fifty crowd) will sometimes talk about a TV or radio but I don’t know very many young people that even watch television news.

Myself, I converted to an almost entirely internet driven news experience probably 8 years ago. It is literally the case that if not for this message board I would know very little about Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Keith Olbermann, or Glenn Beck. I think some of the people on this forum that apparently watch a lot of television news don’t realize how little exposure someone like myself who is a purely internet-based news hound has to these people. I think my news browsing habits are probably a lot more akin to those of 20-somethings like Loughner who grew up with the internet as a source of information.

Because the standard of proof used to justify pillory of a public figure for things said in public is way way lower than the standard used to accuse someone of a crime. It’s not that I think Loughner wouldn’t have killed people absent the rhetoric, it’s that the rhetoric by design incites thoughts of violence and inevitably sparks actual violence. The point is that Loughner attempted to eliminate one of the targets of right wing eliminationist rhetoric. I’m betting that such rhetoric did in fact influence his selection of the congresswoman for assassination, but whether that’s true or not I believe it’s absolutely appropriate and not at all premature to condemn the rhetoric.

It’s blowback that you should be worried about. You don’t need a 95% confidence intervals to pillory a public figure. But unless you have modestly irrefutable evidence, you’re not doing yourself any favors. Soon enough, Rush will be wailing about how liberals are trying to pin this great tragedy on him and the gang. Those liberals, trying to score points in a massacre etc.

The solution: leave this incident out of your pillories. Bonus: it’s the classy, sympathetic thing to do!

I’ve seen basically no one call for Palin or Beck to be charged with a crime. That’s not the issue. Saying people should not say certain things isn’t the same thing as saying they shouldn’t be allowed to say them, under penalty of law.