Hey, Bob, I got TAKEN TO JAIL for jaywalking and not having my ID on me, as I had walked across the street to the library. The cop was a motorcycle cop and he called a squad to come take me to jail. The cop who took me to jail as well as the jailer told me the motorcycle cop was a dick (in politer words I guess). When I went to court I pled guilty “with an explanation” which was allowed according to the judge. After I explained that I got taken to jail for not having an ID on me and for remarking to the cop that I didn’t think I had to carry ID in this country…the judge let me go with a warning. However I was in jail for about 3 hours and only got out because I happened to have some cash in my pocket and could bail out. (Bail for jaywalking is $5. The jailer had to look it up. Good thing I was paying a fine at the library and took cash!) Thalion, thanks. More cops like you would help the world be a more pleasant place.
Although authority has been on my bad side for a long time, I’m agree with the “petty crime, petty fine” post(s) and also say don’t defend yourself by admitting past crimes.
You should look into that quoted clause though; it might be there and it might mitigate the outcome.
I had something similar happen to me last week (I was to lazy to pit it; may I borrow your thread?). I got a ticket because my registration sticker came unstuck from my windshield. It fell, straight down, onto the dashboard and could still be read.
Now technically, I know the sticker is supposed to be affixed to the windshield at all times, but I’m fighting it.
My defense: For the year a half that the sticker has been in effect, I’v have no such violations. I intend to provide documentation regarding the rainy and damp weather conditions during the days before the sticker came upstuck. So, since I’ve haven’t any violatins for that offense during the effective year and a half and, since I wouldn’t just suddenly pull my sticker off the window, it must have been the dampness and the glue deteriorating.
Yes, I’m a nitpicking doper, what can I say?
I’ve gotten breaks for shakier defenses in the past. I told one judge I parked in an illegal zone because, when I found the signs confusing, I asked a beat cop and he said it was okay (this is a true story). I took pictures of the signs, etc. She charged me $10 and left it at that.
Good luck, bob_loblaw.
I feel bad for the guy, but I’m mostly jealous that I don’t talk that fancy.
I have to say, your class and level-headedness are very refreshing, Thalion.
I have met a lot of cops in my life (My mom was Chair of the Police Services Board until she hit the term limit and had to stop running), and I can count on one hand how many of them acted like decent human beings when they were in uniform. As opposed to bullies or snotty hall monitors, but with more fire power, I mean.
I look forward to meeting more like you (off-duty, I mean, OFF-duty! Don’t look at me like that!).
I think a lot of people think the law doesn’t apply to them, and that their judgment is somehow superior to that of everyone else on the planet, but there are extremely good reasons why it is illegal to jaywalk.
The hell with jaywalking. How about making capitalization into a law? It’s not like you don’t have a SHIFT key, what with so many ampersands and all.
^^^Yeah!
I think cops often would think that a pedestrian at 4 am was possibly up to ‘no good’, but they need probable cause to stop you; jaywalking is a legitimate reason to stop some one and ask for ID. by getting closer he would be able to see if you were drunk/high , etc. in the US, if cop asks you for ID, best to simply give it to them w/o attitude.
It’s a common tactic: they go after the smaller fish and offer them deals in exchange for testimony, working their way up the chain. It’s the only way to get to the jaywalking kingpin.
You know you have a very high GQ – giggle quotient. That’s hilarious.
The law applies to us all, and so do standards of reasonable judgment apply to policemen. They are our public servants, whom we hire to help us create a better world.
If the OP was anything close to accurate, this is not one of the cases where there is an “extremely good reason” to enforce a law narrowly which was written broadly.
This sort of exchange between a peace officer and a citizen is exactly the kind of encounter that embitters the public, creates unnecessary tension, and increases distrust of law enforcement. Its ultimate consequence is to create a hostile citizenry, and we see the results of that played out on the streets of every major city.
It was not only petty, it was churlish and childish on the part of the officer to give this ticket.
The offender’s attitude, short of being physically confrontational, should not have a relevance. It is not the role of a public citizen to grovel for policemen, and citizens are not out of line for being indignant over the officer’s demeanor and attitude. There is nothing wrong with the officer saying,“Pardon me, sir. I noticed that you were jaywalking. That’s illegal here, and I’d like to talk to you about it for a moment.” If the officer has other suspicions, he can take them up as the conversation progresses, and if not, the nuisance factor of being stopped, questioned and scolded is plenty appropropriate here. The notion, in particular, that the conversation should begin with a demand to produce identification is especially irritating. I for one, would have asked to see the officer’s identification if he started the conversation that way. I realize I would have paid for this insolence in the short run, but I am fortunate to have the means to take up the consequences in the long run.
For John Q Public, all this kind of incident does is reinforce the notion that cops are on their own running down the truly destructive members in the community, and that is very bad for both sides.
He didn’t give you a ticket for jaywalking, he gave you a ticket for being a pain in the ass.
Here’s a little tip, when you break the law, even if it’s just jaywalking, a cop can ask you for ID, it’s perfectly within his rights to ask for ID, and you can be compelled to provide ID. So, when you just got done breaking the law, and a cop asks you for ID, don’t call him a nazi.
Cops often have discretion with respect to giving tickets for minor infractions, you want to be on the “warning, because you seem nice” side of that discretion instead of the “I’ll give you every ticket I legally can because you’re a giant asshole” side.
If you want to remove discretion, that’s fine, but all it then means is everyone gets a ticket. I’d rather the cop have the discretion to let me off with a warning, rather than have him forced to give me a ticket because assholes want everyone treated the same, just like them.
Will you have a chat with the officer’s staff sergeant, or make a complaint to the Police Complaints Commission, or write to the Mayor?
Out of curiosity, what was the specific charge, and what was the specific description of the charge?
Does what you did exactly match what you were charged with?
Shoud the matter go to trial and should you ask for full disclosure, including the officer’s notes, do you think those notes will be specific enough to support a conviction, and do you think that the officer will have a clear memory of the event, and do you think the officer will even bother to attend the trial?
No advice here, just questions.
I don’t have much to say about the ticket for jaywalking (though I do think that, in the greater scheme of things, giving **bob_loblaw ** a ticket for it was an assholish thing for the cop to do), but I came in to say that I second this:
and this:
and this:
I mean, really, so what if **bob_loblaw ** didn’t react to a disembodied “Hey, you, stop!”? At 4 AM, I might’ve stopped, if only out of curiosity as to what was going on, but I think that **bob_loblaw ** gave pretty good reasons as to why he didn’t stop.
And it’s not as if the cop (who **bob_loblaw ** apparently didn’t see and didn’t realize was a cop until he turned around to see who was **accosting ** him), identified himself, as in, “Hey, police! Stop!” There are practical reasons why police officers should always identify themselves whenever they’re approaching citizens and it’s not always obvious that they’re cops.
Now, granted, **bob_loblaw ** might’ve been better off if he’d filtered the Nazi reference through the “nah, not the best idea under the circumstances” part of his brain, but the notion that he ought to, without question, simply hand over his I.D. to a cop (especially a belligerent cop) when he doesn’t believe that he’s done anything wrong? Well, there aren’t enough :rolleyes: 's. Yes, I realize that, in many places, the cops can ask anyone for I.D. at any time, but that doesn’t mean that ordinary citizens, going about their ordinary business, even if they committed a minor violation that they didn’t know that they’d committed, shouldn’t demand to know, and don’t deserve to know, why the cops are asking to see their I.D.
Sure, cops have the right to give tickets for even minor infractions of traffic regulations, but they don’t have the right to act like they have the biggest dicks on the block–and fuck you if you don’t like it, 'cause I got a badge and a gun–while they’re doing it.
And, Thalion? Thanks for saying that. 
Then again, perhaps the officer thought that he had reason to believe that you were a Louisiana hit man (third article down): http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070311/news_1m11pubsafe.html
You are conflating two issues:
1.) Whether the citation was appropriate.
2.) The officer’s conduct.
As for (1), if you are jaywalking, it is appropriate to be cited for jaywalking. There is no exception in the law for “there weren’t any cars coming”, as well there shouldn’t be. You are not entitled to substitute your own personal judgment for the judgment of your elected legislators who wrote the laws. If it were appropriate for people to just decide for themselves whether to jaywalk because they think it’s o.k., then the law would reflect that. It does not. Many people have died or been injured because they thought “there aren’t any cars coming”.
As for (2), if the story is accurate, it sounds like the officer was unnecessarily rude. There is no reason for them not to be polite, and I agree that rudeness is uncalled for.
i’d like to thank many of the posters for their comments, especially thalion.
after looking closely at my ticket, and at the ontario highway traffic act, i’ve found two important things: first, there is no prohibition in the act against jaywalking. (see the act here and see also an article about this very issue from now magazine here.
what i’ve actually been ticketed for is a violation of hta section 144(25) :
which is not what happened – i crossed the road mid-block.
i talked about this today with one of the doormen at my club (who is an ex-cop) and he told me that i’ll beat this easily if i contest it, likely by simply just showing up to contest, as the issuing cop is not likely to appear in court to defend the ticket, let alone that the charge is on it’s face invalid. also, the reason i was ticketed in the first place is probably either the (unofficial) ticket quota, or the cop just being a dick for the sake of being a dick. or both.
and to clarify for those who missed it, or if i was unclear in my previous posts… as soon as i realized it was a cop, i was polite, i surrendered my id as soon as i found it, and was searching my backpack for it while asking him why i needed to provide it.
but ya, i could’ve been a little more diplomatic, but shit. i had just finished a 14 hour shift, and was still reeling a bit from the manner in which i was approached by the officer - from behind, without him identifying himself as a cop before i could see him.
and i think the thing that pisses me off the most, now that i’ve had a day to think about it, is just the way the cop approached me. what an unbelievable asshole. 4am, nearly deserted streets, and from behind he just yells at me, “hey you! stop!” then clamps his hand on my shoulder… i mean, i’m prolly pretty darn lucky i was aware enough to turn defensively, and not just turn and throw a punch at the unknown man who is accosting me in the street (as far as i knew until i saw him.) that could’ve turned into seventy-four ways of bad fucking news all over the place.
plus, i mean, i never saw him when i crossed the road, so he must have been standing back a couple few feet in the alley between two buildings. not that i wouldn’t have crossed the road at the same point had i seen a cop standing there. seriously. spend a day in downtown toronto, and count the people you see crossing the road at intersections & crosswalks vs. the number you see crossing mid-block, or even against signals. even in heavy traffic, even under the eye of cops. i’ve never known, nor seen, nor even heard of, anyone ever, here, getting even looked at, let alone ticketed for that. fuck.
He can ask you for the ID, but please explain to me how he can compel you to provide an ID that you aren’t legally required to carry.
If you’re stopped while driving your car, you can be compelled to provide your driver’s license and registration, because those things are required in order to drive. But you don’t need to carry ID to walk, or ride your bicycle, or rollerskate, or whatever, on public streets and sidewalks. So how can they make you produce it, if you don’t have to have it on you in the first place?
Minor note: in Ontario the police can require that a bicyclist tell the officer his or her name and address, failing which the officer can arrest the bicyclist. Note that telling name and address does not mean the same thing as producing written identification.
In short, in Ontario a police officer does not have any right to demand that a pedestrian produce identification if that pedestrian has not been arrested for anything. There is nothing, however, prohibiting anyone from asking anyone for ID.
Unfortunately, some officers prefer to abuse the initial respect that most people have for the police. For most folks, if a police officer tells them to do something, they do it. Thus even although the police have no right to demand identification from a non-arrested pedestrian, if an officer demands it, the pedestrian will usually produce it. In my opinion, that’s pretty shoddy behaviour on the part of such an officer.
Hi featherlou. Please show me that law that he allegedly broke.
Ontario’s Highway Traffic Act does not prohibit j-walking.
Under the act a pedestrian must not cross against a red light, or suddenly jump into traffic at a pedestrian crossing, or walk along a road with back to traffic, or hitchike or squeegee etc. on the travelled portion of the road (it’s OK to do that on the shoulder), or walk on roads that have specifically been closed to pedestrians (e.g. multi-lane freeways like the 400 series highways). There is nothing in the act against j-walking.
Up where I live in the northwest end of the province, a pedestrian could walk for hours (and in some places even for days) before coming to a four way intersection.
In rural areas, it is common for people to have their post boxes on the side of the road that the delivery person travels along, such that the homeowner may have to cross the road to get his or her mail.
Quite simply, a province-wide prohibition against crossing the road at anywhere other than an intersection would be rediculously unworkable (not to mention how many comics and chicken farmers would be out of work). Thus we do not have any such law.
What we do have is the ability for municipalities to make local by-laws against j-walking on certain sections of certain roads as the municipality chooses, but the officer in the OP did not enforce a municipal by-law (if there is one for that section of that street). What the officer did was:
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Scare a pedestrian in the middle of the night by accosting him without first identifying himself as a police officer, in circumstances in which the pedestrian would not be expecting to be accosted, and in fact had every reason to be wary of an assault given the time of night.
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Demand ID without any lawful reason for such a request.
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In violation of the pedestrian’s constitutional rights, arrest the pedestrian without lawful reason by causing the pedestrian to stop and subject himself to questioning upon threat of being taken in for resisting arrest.
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In an abuse of process, charge the pedestrian with a charge that bore no relation to the event.
Quite simply, the officer rousted the pedestrian, which is a serious no-no that violates the Code of Conduct that governs police in Ontario, and is worthy of at least a reprimand by his supervisor or a prosecution for misconduct under the Police Services Act. In my opinion, that sort of person should never be permitted to be in a position of authority, let alone be a police officer. The police have a tough enough job as it is without persons like this officer going about causing friction between the public and the police. The Toronto police are there “To Serve and Protect”; people should not have to be protected from the police.