Police/pedestrian encounter (rights violated). What would you have done?

I had an interesting experience with the police last night that I’d like to get some opinions on.

Last night, at about 10pm, I discovered that I needed something from the grocery store. So, I decided to truck on down to the grocery store (in my relatively crime free neighborhood), which is about 3 blocks from my apartment. It had been snowing all day and I didn’t feel like cleaning off the car to drive, so I just walked, as I often do. As I was walking down the sidewalk (just leaving my apartment), a police car drove past me, and I thought nothing of it. So, I get to the store and noticed that the police car was parked in front of the store. I didn’t see the driver initially, but I’m 99.9% sure if was the same police car that had just cruised by me 2.5 blocks earlier. I go in the store, make my purchase and come back out. Then, I remembered that I wanted a copy of the local apartment guide, so I went back in and grabbed a free copy and proceeded to walk across the parking lot, toward my apt complex. The cop, who was sitting in his car got out and said, “It’s kind of cold to be out walking, isn’t it?” And I replied, “yes, indeed it is”. I had assumed that he was just making small talk, and was probably bored on a slow night. Then the cop asked me if I lived in the area and I said yes. Then, the cop asked if I had any ID on me. I was a bit puzzled as to why he would ask me, but I replied that I did not have any ID on me (which I didn’t). He said, “You’re not in any trouble or anything, I just want to know who you are and what you’re doing out here, it’s kind of unusual for someone to be out on foot in this weather”. I told him again that I had just come to get something at the store and was on my way back home. He said, “you came out without ID?”, to which I replied yes. He seemed to be really amused that I left home without ID, as if to suggest that only stupid people leave home without ID. I do normally have ID on me, but I’m not convinced that I would have given it to this officer if I did happen to have it on me.

He then proceeded to tell me that I’m required by state law to carry ID with me at all times and present it when asked by law enforcement. Well, I know this is not true and told him that he might want to check with his supervisor about this. According to his actions, this was not the right thing to say. His demeanor changed a bit and he rudely asked me what my name was and I said, "Why do you need to know my name, do you suspect me of illegal activity?’’ I was already irked that he had blatantly lied to me about having to carry ID. He told me that I was interfering with his job duty and he had the legal right to ask for my ID or to get my name so he could check me out. I told him he was incorrect and asked if I was free to go. He told me to wait. Then, he got back in his car and he was talking on his cell phone. Meanwhile, I’m standing there, shivering in the cold. About five minutes went by, and he got back out and said, “ok, you’re free to go, but in the future try to be a bit less combative when talking to the police, it only makes you look guilty…we’re only here to protect the public”. I didn’t even say anything, and turned away and walked back home. Just for the record, I was not rude or combative to the officer, I was simply cold, and wanted to get back home. And the whole time I was walking back home, I was nervous as hell that I hadn’t seen the last of this cop, but I got home and that was the end of it. Had it been a warm night, I would probably have asked him why he thought the public needed to be protected from me.

When I got home, I was doubting myself as to whether or not I’m required to carry ID with me when out in public, so I went online to do some research. From everything I’ve read, you are NOT required to carry ID (in the USA) unless you’re driving or doing something else that requires a license. As far as I know, walking down the street does not require a license. And I discovered something else I already knew…police cannot simply ask random people for ID or to identify themselves without having evidence that they’re involved in illegal activity. This whole thing got me to thinking, could the cop have been even more of an asshole and said, “well, we’ve had car break-in’s in this area and you seem suspicious”. Even though he saw me practicially leaving my front door, could he have had legal authority to request my ID if he used the faux “car break-in” card? I guess when it comes down to it, it’s your word against theirs, right? And the police always win, right?

I have very limited experience dealing with the police, this was only my 2nd time. But, did I do the right thing? Should I have just co-operated with him and given him my name and address? I feel that I did the right thing, standing up for my rights…although I was a bit shaky, but at least know I know for sure that I was correct in my actions.

Have you ever had any similiar stories regarding police misinformation or intimidation? I feel like the officer was trying to intimidate me. He was never really rude to me, except when he raised his voice when I questioned why he needed to know my name. He backed down a lot after he got off the phone, with his supervisor, I presume.

Here’s the rule. Never, ever, argue with an officer. When he tells you that you are required to carry an ID, just say “I’m sorry, I didn’t know that, I’ll make sure I always have it on me” and with that he probably would have said “Okay, watch out for the ice on your walk home” and that would have been the end of it.
Then when you get home you can look it up and if he was wrong you can email or call his supervisor and let them know what he’s telling people.
He was probably checking out who was correct while he was on the phone. If he was right you would have been in the back of his car, if you were right and started getting pissy about it he would have found another reason to arrest you…there’s always another reason.

I’d rather be wrong at home than right in the back of a squad car with handcuffs on. This is another case of “sometimes you win by letting the other person think they’ve won.”

And BTW, required or not, it’s a good idea to have your ID on you. Kind of a ‘just in case’ thing.

This x 2

“Failure to comply” taser strikes are all too common

Do you think he saw you actually leave your apartment? If not, maybe he thought you were homeless. In south Florida, at least, some cities are well known within the homeless population for giving them a hard time - the police seem to want to make life difficult for the homeless.
Or, optimistically, maybe he was going to point out a shelter you could go to if you needed somewhere to stay warm.

Or maybe he just felt like showing he has power.

-D/a

I’ve been in that situation a number of times. You did well to fob the guy off without him causing more trouble. I walk and bike all over so I feel your pain. This officer kept trying to bait you into doing something like running, swearing, touching, or anything else he could react more seriously to. You did not fall for it.

In a worst case situation, they can make something up and take you in for questioning. They could even plant something and cause real trouble. This DOES happen. So the best thing to do is work with the situation gracefully and get out of there. Never react.

When dealing with the police, it’s ALWAYS best to be cooperative and pleasant. Being pissy because you feel the officer has no right rarely ends well.

As for your OP, couple of things that may have caused him to be suspicious of your activity.

If this was a small market, it may well be someplace he has a relationship with the owner and keeps an extra watch out for them
[ul]
[li]and he found it strange someone would be out walking in inclement weather[/li][li]and your double entry into the market may have made him think you were either casing the joint or that you noticed the police car and were trying to avoid him[/li][li]and your lack of ID (which may well be legal, but is never a good idea for a multitude of reasons)[/li][/ul]

In short, your activities drew his attention and he does have the right to investigate something he feels is suspicious

I agree completely with this post. You fight your battles in the courts, not in the streets, and if the cop gets pissed off enough and wants to arrest you for some made-up charge, he will, regardless of whether all 9 Supreme Court Justices are wassailing Christmas Carols 10 feet away.

I wouldn’t even contact a supervisor - depending on how your police department is run, it’s highly likely the response will be “hey Frank, looks like we got another troublemaker. Maybe someone ought to make sure his car is REALLY in compliance with all vehicle ordinances past, present, and future, and tow it somewhere if not.”

Joey P nailed it in one.

I think a very small percentage of cops are assholes who enjoy screwing with people. The rest get really annoyed when somebody assumes at the drop of a hat that they’re all assholes who enjoy screwing with people.
He was probably just trying to see how you reacted to his question more than anything, and you did yourself no favors by starting an argument. If you really believe your rights were violated (sorry, I don’t see it), you can always report the incident afterwards. But being confrontational with a police officer = Bad Idea.

You were both sort of wrong.

There is no requirement to carry identification when you aren’t in a car, in the US.

However, a law that requires you to identify yourself (verbally) to a police officer, is not unconstitutional.

I do not know where you live, so I do not know if there is such a law in your jurisdiction (you can find a list of states with so-called “Stop & Identify” statutes here. But if there was such a law, you committed a crime recognized by the US Supreme Court as constitutional when you failed to identify yourself by name to the officer.

Jesus Christ the responses to this thread make me sad. Not that they are wrong, just sad. Things have come to a sorry state indeed when law abiding citizens doing no wrong are afraid of the police.

too late to edit - I meant to write
“you were both sort of wrong, maybe.”

You make it sound as if there was ever a time or place when that wasn’t the case. If that’s so, I gently suggest that it’s because you were too young to notice.

Some cops are great. Some aren’t, same as in any profession. Sadly, you have to assume the guy hassling you is the later or risk your freedom, at least for the night.

I live in one of those great questionmark states with this issue. According to Illinois statute, a police officer may “demand” information of me, but it doesn’t actually say whether or not I must respond accurately (or at all.) I don’t know what case law has made of this for my state.

One of the hardest things to do is to keep your mouth shut when you know you are right.

When you are being questioned by a cop is the time to practice this policy.

At the very most, I might have said, “really? That doesn’t sound quite right.”

I certainly understand your position, but you were very lucky to not have been taken…uh…“downtown”.
mmm

Cops are public servants like garbagemen. It is in the public interest for someone to have the balls to remind them once in a while.

Who said anything about being afraid? Being polite and respectful to cops is not a sign of weakness, even if you may disagree with one on a point of law. The sorry state is when people can’t be civil to one another.

There are ways to deal with officers who step over the line, but I don’t happen to think the one in the OP did so.

If either of you two are willing to risk getting arrested to prove that you’re right, go ahead. Personally, I’d rather just agree with the cop, apologize and be on my merry way as if nothing happened at all. If I felt so inclined I might find the relevant law and email it to the supervisor later on and explain what happened. Making sure to either reference the cop’s name or at least the time and location of the incident. If I was feeling particularly offended I’d probably CC the local news outlets. But standing up to an officer…almost never a good idea. As mentioned above (by myself and others) even if you can prove you are right about this, if you piss off the cop, he’ll probably pick you up for something else. Flailing your arms too much? Resisting. Getting loud and cursing? Wait here until I get another squad with a breathalyzer. Hey, I saw you walk in and take something. I’m placing you under arrest for suspicion of retail theft.
Again, you could probably get out of all these things, but why waste the time or energy when letting the cop think he’s right will allow you to walk away.

And don’t forget, the cop will probably just do the same thing to the next person. You’re not making any headway. When you stand up to an officer you’re just spinning your wheels. There are ways to get an officer to change his ways, there are ways to get him to understand the laws in his jurisdiction better…Saying “You can’t make me” at 10pm during a snowstorm isn’t one of them.

I like what you did here. Police do think of themselves like garbage men and the rest of the public as their garbage. They feel it’s their right to take advantage of the people they stop because they are worthless and probably can’t fight back. The percentage of such officers is certainly something less than 100%, but at the time of a stop you never know what you are dealing with. Various types of cameras have been very helpful in ‘outing’ some of these rogues.

I don’t believe you were in the wrong at all refusing to give him your name and address; however, it would’ve been just as easy to do it without having to stand there in the cold while you waited for him to talk to his supervisor. Standing up for your rights is all well and good, but if you’re freezing your ass off, sometimes practicality can be more attractive.

It’s also smart to be considerate to your garbageman so your garbage can doesn’t wind up in the street, run over by 100 cars before you get home.

Make a job difficult for a public servant, all you’re going to get back is a level of service that meets the legal requirement. Where they have discretion, you’re not getting the advantage of it.

Policemen have a lot of discretion and a lot of authority. He has a responsibility to investigate odd/suspicious behavior. Make that investigation difficult, and he’s not going to use his discretion to let you go home quickly, you get to stand in the cold for a while. If he really thinks you might be up to something, and he has the legal discretion to bring you in for further questioning, you’re in for a long night.

It’s the same way as looking both ways before crossing in the street in a designated crosswalk.
Yes, any car that’s coming must automatically stop. Yes, I absolutely have the right of way.

I think I’ll look both ways anyway. Because I’d rather be 100% right and safe and sound on the curb, than be 100% right and in intensive care for three months.

You can be 100% right with on a point of law with the cops too. But what hill do you wish to die upon?