Police/pedestrian encounter (rights violated). What would you have done?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

A conversation between me and my ex wife a few years ago in a car:

Me: Stop…stop…STOP…STOP!!!
XW: [STOPS] What?
Me: That car is about…oh there it goes, that car just ran the stop sign.
XW: I saw it, it would have been his fault if he hit me.
Me: So
XW: So, it would have been his fault and he would have had to pay the bills

[This went back and forth a few times until I finally gave up and said]

Me: Yup, you’re absolutely right. He ran the sign, he caused the accident, he would have been totally responsible, you may have even gotten some cash out of the settlement, but you’re the one that’s going to have to re-learn how to walk.

22

Friend of mine is an ER nurse. She’s teaching her 16 year old son to drive (Og help them both.) As she said to him during a similar argument, “I see a dozen people a day who were right. Vents don’t *care *who had the right of way.”

23

I don’t know, when I hear things like “Never, ever argue with a police officer” or “Failure to comply” taser strikes are all to common" or "I wouldn’t even contact a supervisor - depending on how your police department is run, it’s highly likely the response will be “hey Frank, looks like we got another troublemaker. Maybe someone ought to make sure his car is REALLY in compliance with all vehicle ordinances past, present, and future, and tow it somewhere if not.” I hear a pretty strong background message of fear.

Look, I am not saying that being polite and respectful of cops is a sign of weakness. What I am saying is that I should, as a law abiding citizen, have the reasonable expectation of being able to walk to the corner store without some goon on a power trip giving me grief for no reason.

YMMV

24

I think you handled it pretty well OP. You stood up for yourself without chewing anyone out. In your place I would have chewed the cop a new one. Such a thing would have been scary, and I tend to respond to that kinda stuff with anger of equal intensity. Which, while cathartic, might not have worked out so well.

25

See, the point that I am making is that we have come to a point where we are afraid of the police and that this is sad. Nothing too complex and I am smart enough to understand that arguing with a cop will most often result in you being arrested for some random made up reason. I am also smart enough to know that the probable result of filing some sort of a grievance later will more likely than not produce results that I don’t like.

No, far better to scuttle from about like little rabbits (with ID!) and do our best to stay below the radar as much as we can.

I just think that it is sad.

26

However, I also respect that the officer has a duty to ask questions if through my actions I’ve given him reason to be suspicious.

Look, we weren’t there and I fully realize there’s more than one side to every story. All I’m saying is that I’m sure the officer would have much rather remained in his warm comfortable car munching on a donut and drinking coffee than get out and question the OP regarding his activities. There was something the OP did to catch the officer’s attention, and he may not even realized what that was.

27

Like bears, police are more afraid of us than we are of them. Haven’t you ever seen No Country for Old Men?

28

Do a lot of people really carry a photo ID on their person at all times? I don’t even own a photo ID (as I don’t drive, and haven’t had a need to get a state license). My BF has a license, but it lives in his car.

This OP makes me a] mad (I have an authority problem I admit) and b] glad I still look like a little girl. Cops don’t ever give me a second look - and there have been plenty of times what I was doing was suspicious or illegal. I don’t think I could have kept from talking back in this situation…

I think this argument that we should kiss the ass of cops/garbage men out of fear they will abuse their power is bullshit. I serve people food, even when they are rude to me that doesn’t mean they can expect me to spit in it.

29

You are wrong. This law does not allow cops to ask for IDs from random people on the street. It allow it “during the course of an investigation”. The cop must have a reasonable suspicion that you were involved in some kind of criminal activity.

That’s not to say it’s a good idea to get into an argument on the street over it.

Yes, the cop certainly might have done this, but it might not be a matter of your word against his. If the cop says there have been break-ins recently, and there haven’t, well then… There would need to be some kind of record that the crimes the cop alleges actually were committed.

But again, while this might make a difference if the case ever got into a courtroom, it’s not gonna help you on the street if you run unto a cop who’s having a bad night. And even in courtroom, the cop might change his story to conform to actual known facts, whatever he told you on the street earlier.

30

Actually, I’m going to take a step back here, and ask a related question of my own.

Now that I’ve thought of it, I’m not really certain your rights were violated.

My question is: is a cop violating your rights merely by asking you questions that you aren’t obliged to answer? Or are your rights violated only if the cop punishes you in some manner for not answering? And similarly for actions: the cop asked you (or maybe even “instructed” you) to wait, and you did so voluntarily. In a legal, technical sense, can this be said to be “detaining” you for some short period of time. No specific coercion was used, though coercion is almost always implied with instructions from cops.

31

There are many activities where you’ll be required to provide a picture ID. I would highly recommend getting a state issued ID. Some of these activities include air travel, opening a bank account, even getting a library card…

32

Yeah, I think there is a side to this story we aren’t hearing. I’ve never seen a cop stop someone for no reason and, while I am sure it does happen, I think it happens a lot less often than people complain about it.

Last year I was stopped by the cops because I had been at a theme party and had dressed as a zombie. Unfortunately by the end of the night most of the make-up had worn away and the only thing you could see was the fake blood on my face. When the police stopped my I smiled and laughed, explained where I had been and where I was going, and offered to take the cops back to the party I had just left if they wanted to verify that information. If I had looked at them like I didn’t trust them and mumbled about how it was just make up and that I didn’t have to identify myself to them I probably would have been hauled into the station for my own safety and they would have been in the right to do so.

33

Reasonable suspicion is a pretty low bar. It’s any articulable facts, basically, more than a hunch. In fact, the OP’s behavior - going in and out of the store for little apparent reason – is remarkably similar to the behavior found to create reasonable suspicion in Terry v. Ohio.

The thing is you have no way of knowing whether the LEO has something the courts would deem reasonable suspicion. You may match the description of a person they are looking for in connection with a crime. You may be exhibiting the MO of a person who robbed that store three times that week. You really don’t know, and the LEO is not going to tell you. So it is fairly unwise to assume they have no RS and act as if you have every right to avoid their questions. In point of fact, you may be wrong and if you are wrong, you are committing a crime in several states.

34

It took me a long time to learn that arguing with a police officer is usually a losing proposition, but I’m a natural born smart-ass. If I had been out walking on a very cold night when no one else was walking, I might expect to be questioned by a cop if for no other reason that he might be concerned for my welfare; I wouldn’t be surprised or offended. As to ID, I never leave home without my wallet in my pocket----I don’t know when I might meet with an accident and need my insurance information. But that’s just me, not the OP. I’m predisposed to mistrust the police and even I don’t see that the cop in question misbehaved in any meaningful way; he might have been a veritable rookie and unsure of the law concerning the requirement to carry ID.

35

You are in one of three stages when an LEO makes contact with you:

  1. Encounter
  2. Detainment
  3. Arrest

It is always important to know what stage you’re in at any given moment.

IANAL, and this is not legal advice. I am simply relating what I do during an LEO encounter while afoot. YMMV.

During an encounter, the LEO is simply striking up a conversation with me. Even though the LEO may be fishing for info, it is not illegal for him/her to do this; likewise, I am also free to strike up a conversation with anyone else walking along the street. This is what initially occurred with the OP.

During an encounter, I do not answer any questions, even when I know I am 100% innocent. The only thing I say is, “Am I free to go?” If the LEO says I am free to go, then I know I am not being detained, and I promptly leave. If the LEO says I am *not *free to go, then I know I have graduated to the detainment stage.

If I am being detained, it is because the LEO supposedly has reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) that a) I had committed a crime, or b) I am committing a crime, or c) I am about to commit a crime. During detainment, the LEO is trying to find probable cause to arrest me. Courts have not definitively ruled how long an LEO is allowed to detain me, but anything over an hour is generally considered unreasonable.

During detainment, I ask the LEO “Am I free to go?” about every five minutes. If the LEO says I am free to go, then I know I have been bumped back to the encounter stage, and I promptly leave. If the LEO says I am not free to go, then I know I am still in the detainment stage. I am also in Ohio, so if the LEO asks for my name, address, and/or DoB, I provide the information. Since I am not driving a vehicle, I do not provide my driver’s license.

During detainment, if the LEO purportedly finds probable cause I have committed a crime and subsequently arrests me, I say nothing except “I want to speak with my lawyer.” If the LEO fails to find probable cause during detainment, then I must be let go. If I believe I was detained when there was no RAS to detain me, I will file a formal complaint.

36

Some police departments inspire fear, and some inspire confidence. LAPD got a bad rep for a reason back in the day, and here in Texas DPD is working on doing the same. YMMV particularly and especially if you don’t deal with cops from those depts.

I believe the OP had a simliar expectation. Fat lot of good it did him, too.
OP, your location does not show. You may recall, however, a little dust-up earlier this year when Arizona passed a state law requiring people to carry and show ID. People were a mite upset, IIRC. The fact that they passed such a law - and that it caused an uproar covered in many, many other threads so no need to go there now - is a good indication that no such law previously existed. (Since you mentioned snow, I assume that you are not in Arizona.)

37

Here’s what it comes down to from what I can see of your post:

You were being odd, by your own admission. You were out on foot, on a cold-ass evening, and you went back in and out of the store again once you were through shopping. You even imply that you usually would have driven, but that you didn’t want to de-snow your car, which to me further implies that you live in the kind of place where *even you don’t usually walk *around to the grocery store.

There are places like this all over, where people only drive, and there is nothing wrong with changing that pattern, but cops are trained to know and look for people behaving unusually. You were, by your own admission, behaving unusually.

Because of this, the cop flagged you.

From his perspective, the officer expected a quick interaction - I ask a question, the weirdo shows their ID, I’ve preserved security and order, and they go on their way, while I get back to my warm car.

The cop expected you to have your ID. Most people (again, that pattern-seeking training) carry their ID - if you paid for your groceries with a credit card, the grocer could have demanded ID to check the card. If you had a wallet or purse with your money, usually people keep their ID with their money or their phones.

He wanted to see ID for a quick confirmation that yes you are a normal citizen with papers, and that yes, you do live in the area, as a quick confirmation of your grocery shopping story. If you had shown him the ID, I would be willing to bet that his answer would be “stay safe and try not to freeze before you get home.” He may have watched you to see if you really did go into your house easily, and then would have chalked you up to a strange bird and forgotten about you.

He wanted a quick easy confirmation of your story by asking for your ID.

The cop FURTHER expected you to not know the relevant laws regarding him asking for your ID.

This gets into the thorny legal issues. I would WAG that somewhere in the range of 90% of people in the USA don’t actually KNOW their legal rights regarding police and showing ID, therefore, * The police officer doesn’t expect a run-of-the-mill citizen to know about these things. *

Two of the subsets of people who DO know the details of interactions with cops are 1) criminals, and 2) civil libertarians, both of whom are populations which generally are a pain in a police officer’s ass, *because a great many **officers *don’t know the laws regarding ID and police either. I am not saying whether the cops are right to feel this way or not, just that they do.

That said, the legality of the situation was pretty straightforward, and the cop did nothing wrong.

They are allowed to ask you do to anything, and if you comply willingly, then there is no real question of legality afterwards (unless your lawyer is really good) because you voluntarily gave the info to them. Sadly, it’s very hard to prove coercion or threats of violence due to the officer’s position, but it can happen. Without that, the interaction is just one where you’re being polite and nice to an officer.

On the flip side, you are also allowed to state your rights and the relevant statutes of the law, and the officer did the right thing - he checked with his supervisor, he knew you were right, and he let you go without hassling you further.

However, I would be willing to bet that he now remembers you, and will consider you an annoyance or a slight threat, and you better be damn sure your tags and driving habits are up to snuff for the next few months.

Is this a sad state of affairs? Perhaps. Am I willing to go to jail or be hassled by a not so nice cop because I’m not willing to show my ID when I’m out walking? Not really. I’d much rather send a nice open letter to the department and the town from my nice warm home, offering a friendly reminder of the relevant statutes and my opinion that it was an honest mistake on the officer’s part, and that I appreciate their work in keeping people safe.

Would that letter be entirely honest? Perhaps not, but there is always a place for tact, and it’s usually with the person who ISN’T in the position of power.

38

This is all very true; even if I suspect I was detained without RAS, I may very well fit the description of someone they are looking for. So it’s never a good idea to assume the LEO does not have RAS. Furthermore, and as you stated, the LEO does not have to verbally state his/her RAS to me while I am detained.

Now IANAL, but I would have to assume that the LEO would have to prove he/she had RAS to *someone *after the fact. Perhaps his/her supervisor, or a judge? I have to believe an LEO does not have a blank check to falsely claim RAS whenever he/she feels like detaining someone.

39

Ohio also has a Stop and Identify Statue (ORC 2921.29). But the law does not allow an LEO to demand ID on a whim or based on a hunch. You are only obligated to provide your name, address, or date of birth to an LEO if a) the LEO has RAS you are committing, have committed, or are about to commit a crime, or b) the LEO has RAS you have witnessed a crime. In addition, there is nothing in the law that says you must carry a *written *form of ID (such as a D.L.), so providing this information verbally meets the letter of the law.

40

Unless, of course, the LEO detained the OP without RAS. If this is the case, the LEO committed a crime.