jerks. i'm so happy for the women you know.

Fuck it.
I don’t want to pit people, I don’t like doing it.
But I’m upset.
Really, really fucking upset.
(Look, I’m even using capitals!)

And my computer skills are nil, so I can’t link.

But folks, if you’d be so kind as to read the “1/4 of all women raped” thread in GQ, especially page 3.
I hope you can agree with me that some people are
a) spreading ignorance
b) being really fucking misogynistic bastards.

Sorry, I’m a little bit too upset to do this properly.
I don’t want to make personal attacks, because quite frankly I don’t want to waste the time and energy.

I just want to say it.

I agree. I’m disgusted by some of the people in there, saying it’s because we’re spreading “Rape propaganda” and have “an agenda”.

I can believe that statistics can be fudged, but good GOD, the attitude of “Blame the Victim” is in full force in that fucking thread.

Page 3 of the thread in question
I currently have no comment - I haven’t read it yet.

Yes irishgirl there is quite a bit of uninformed misogynistic attitudes arround.

What people are not familiar with first hand are often quick to accept authoratative information as fact, rather than ask the source.

Knowing from whence you speak - hugs to you darlin’.

Not everyone is a jerk. There are a few good folk around who understand and are supportive.

Thanks for opening a pit thread about this, Irishgirl. I was very disturbed by many of the posts in that thread. And I wouldn’t restrict the ‘jerk’ label to the third page–some of the posters on the first and second pages were incredible asses, too. It boggles my mind that people can still latch on to those horrific “let’s blame the victim” attitudes.
On the up-side, the ignorance and misogyny expressed by some of the posters makes it a no-brainer to put them on my ‘ignore’ list. Still, it’s depressing to know that a site devoted to fighting ignorance is infected by such low-lifes. :mad:

RIght on, irishgirl. I was pretty disturbed, too. It’s probably impossible to prove or disprove a statistic like that conclusively in a manner that will satisfy everyone, but geez, have some tact!

And what the hell are statistics anyway, if not a compilation of
anecdotal information?

Don’t let the schmucks get you upset. (I know, I know, much easier said than done.)

I just posted a reply to that thread. I think you may want to read it, Irishgirl.

Hang in there, hon - you know you’re not alone…

I though about posting there, but the weight of words was against it.

Most of the women I’ve been close with over the years have told me about attacks they’ve endured. I agree with all the posters who said that more women were attacked than statistics or men reported. You’re right to rant, the volume of denial and “blaming the victim” is staggering, and seems to come from men.

Fight the stupidity.

Where I’ve tried to turn the tide is with my son. I have explained and explained to him about pressuring girls, predatory behavior, etc. Teaching our sons to be better is just about the only way to make it change.

Face it, sisters, too many women have a bad sexual experience as their first. I don’t buy this “coercion is not the same as stranger rape”. It’s my body, goddam it. Just because you are drooling over some tender vittles does not give you the right to violate me. Some of the posters in that thread wonder “what’s the definition of rape”. Gimme a fucking break! If you have to ask, you really need to grow a clue.

I try to avoid threads like that, because they always end up the same way. You’d think that people who cared so much about accurate statistics would realize that “the women I know” are not a representative sample, even if it were true (and it certainly is not) that “no woman I know ever told me she’d been raped” means that “no women I know has ever been raped”.

Irishgirl, I’m so sorry. I had a bad feeling about how that thread would affect you, as well as some of the other women who posted (and heaven only knows how many women who haven’t posted there).

I’m not even up to responding any further, but know that I’m behind you.


This board is supposed to be about fighting ignorance? Maybe we should try a little harder to fight insensitivity too. irishgirl you did not deserve to be challenged (on page 3) like that. I though your response was courageous.

Thank you guys.
Nice to know I have some support.

Sorry, nice to know WE have support.
Because this isn’t just about me.

Oh bullshit.

The statistic is flawed due to the flawed research methods and counting the ‘regret’ of sex as rape, even if the supposed victim would flat out state on the survey that they have never been raped.

I’m sick and tired of seeing people called misogynists for pointing out flawed statistics and incorrect research. People who do shit like that make life harder for everyone else, because they trivialize the seriousness of the crime with every ‘rape’ case they report that was really a case of regret.

It’s not men who question the statistics that’ll cause people to question wehther or not I’m telling the truth when I say I was raped, it’s people who lie about having been raped - rather like someone who posted on another message board that she would gladly lie about having been raped to get out of watching a film she didn’t want to see.

The guys over in GD aren’t misogynists. If anyone’s a misogynist, it’s that chick who’d lie about being raped.

Unfortunately, it’s easier for a lot of people to believe the line that “women make it all up” because that means they don’t have to really address the issue itself.

I also think that, for guys, some of this ridiculous attitude stems from a sort of visceral fear of being unfairly accused of sexual assault. It has become a legal truism that rape is one of the hardest things to prove even if it actually happened, and also one of the easiest accusations to make even if it didn’t. The problem is, i think, that many people look past the first part of this dyad and concentrate only on the second.

I have no statistics to hand of how frequently women falsely accuse men of sexual assault, but the problem is that, whether the statistics are small or large, the spectre of such an accusation has taken hold of many men and convinced them they must live their lives in fear of being the victim of an evil woman. I really don’t think this fear is justified, but at the same time can understand where it comes from. The problem is, it diverts attention from the people who are the vast majority of victims in this issue - the women who suffer sexual assaults.

While statistics in debates like this are always open to interpretation (and manipulation), and i can see how there can be reasoned debate over such things, too many people in that other thread turned the whole debate into an “us vs them.” As jarbabyj said in that thread, it was rather sad (although also instructive) that the first three respondents came straight out and essentially made the “women are liars” argument, with absolutely no supporting evidence. In reply to jar’s criticism of this position, astro said that “a bit of prudence in determining what someone is defining as “rape” is hardly uncalled for.” That may be true, but “prudence” was not exactly the order of the day for the posters astro was defending, who said, regarding the OP’s rape statistics, “Just a WAG, but it sounds like BS to me,” and “I think this particular statistic was made up. No, seriously!” Nice prudent analysis there!

Then Truth Seeker makes the genius argument that “If 17.6% of women have been raped, then 17.6% of men must be rapists,” totally ignoring

a) the possibility that this might actually be true
b) the fact that many sex offenders are repeat offenders - if you get away with it once, you’ll be more likely to do it again

And then someone dragged out the hoary old example of Catherine MacKinnon, who is alleged to have said that all sex is rape. The standard argumentative line taken by mysoginists is that well, if she said this, then how can we take anything you feminists say seriously? This line of argument conveniently ignores the fact that:

a) MacKinnon’s discussions of sex and rape are much more nuanced than that phrase suggests
b) even if she had said exactly those words (“all sex is rape”), it does not follow that all women believe this.

Another disturbing thing about the thread in question is that so many of those who were criticizing the OP were basing their arguments on “women i know” or “people who i’ve talked to.” As far as i could see, not one linked to any site (biased or otherwise) that might support their claims. It was argument by “IIRC.” Actually. astro did finally link to an article, almost a full page after making an unsubstantiated assertion.

Finally, one of the most worrying things is that in a debate like this the victims of sexual assault/rape end up as little more than side issues. Among all those attacking the OP, almost none stopped to say “Hey, whether the figures are higher or lower than you say, rape is an awful thing and is something we as a society need to stamp out.” Even if the percentage of women raped turned out, upon examination, to be “only,” say, 5%, this would still be a pretty damning indictment of attitudes to women in a so-called civilized society.

Good pit-thread, irishgirl. It needed doing.

There is nothing courageous about standing up to eight letters on the left-hand side of the one’s screen.

What a gratuitously snide thing to say.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Is it so important to you to pull people down instead of lifting them up? Clearly, what Irishgirl posted was very important to her, was personal, and required a lot of effort. I’d call that courageous. Your fly-by insult is, in contrast, characteristic of a jerk. Grow up. Get to know a woman besides your mother. Then let’s see if you still think it’s fun to put-down victims of rape. Grrrrr.

Maybe I’m somehow missing this supposedly obvious misogyny, but it appears to me that most (not all) of the participants in that thread were merely trying to answer the question.

Yes, there were people (on both sides of the issue) who tried to use their anecdotes as data, but overall I don’t think it was anything like what some in this thread have painted it to be.

On preview:
Antimanics, I know this is the Pit, but that doesn’t mean you have to be a slack-jawed shit-gargling asshat.

quoting BlackKnight

Did you read the thread? Take a look again at the very first few responses:

Skateboarder87 says, “Just a WAG, but it sounds like BS to me. You also have to consider that not all women who claimed to have been “raped” have actually been “raped”.”

Crafter_Man says, “The definition of “rape” has evolved to the point that just about any sexual episode can be construed as rape by one party on another.”

Then Smiling bandit says, “I think this particular statistic was made up. No, seriously!” [No, I don’t call this particular post misogynist, just flip and clueless.]

Then Bernse says, “I heard similar stats as well. IIRC, the number seemed extraordinarily high as they were counting sexual encounters where they may have consented, but not really wanted it.
The example given was to think of a husband wanting some action, and the wife just wanting to sleep but agreeing to give him some.”

Now, I agree that none of these uses specific hate-language that leaps out as misogynistic, but the intent of each of these posts, as I read them, is to minimize the impact and to question the veracity of a woman’s report of being raped. If that’s not misogyny, then it’s pretty damn close.
Note the way the first two posters both put quotes around the word rape, calling into question the very use of the word, as if it doesn’t belong in the ‘questionable’ accusations that women are making. And these were the first four posts in the thread! There are longer, more loutish, hateful posts further down which I won’t bother quoting.
Yes, I think the posters who try to prove their case by accusing women of making things up or exaggerating deserve to be pitted.
Or banned.

Lest you think I’m tarring you with the same brush, BlackKnight–kudos on your response to Antimanics! You said it much better than I.