I guess that depends on your point of view/interpretation of the things said or written. From MY point of view, the general tone and/or wording of some of the posts in that thread show at the very least a great deal of anger toward women and in some cases yes, misogynistic attitudes. I am merely voicing my opinion here, not looking for semantic debates.
This isn’t an argument that can be won, catsix. When you put forth your position, you are either a traitor or a dupe. If a male puts forth the same position, he’s either a misogynist or a rapist.
As soon as you deal effectively with one opponent, another sniper will come along.
Except no one is saying that. Or implying it. I can’t find a clear hint of feminist agenda among any of the posts here except what might be an accidental similarity with respect to rape statistics. Can you?
Women as a whole interact with men all their lives; they have fathers, brothers, grampas, uncles, husbands, friends, teachers, neighbors, etc, etc, and I don’t know any woman personally who wants to tar all of them with the same brush - even on message boards, even after being assaulted. That’s an idea I’d expect to find in 1970s radical feminist literature, and hardly ever in real life.
Well, in my not so humble opinion a person who is only assholish to women IS a misogynist.
The IMPRESSION that I got from some of the posts was that had a man complained about being falsely accused, some of the posters would be the first on the band-wagon to lynch the woman involved (rightly so, BTW), however; I also got the IMPRESSION that those same posters would assume that all women were lying about rape, unless they had been killed in the process. To the point that they would call the woman a lying sac of whatever if the rapist was someone she knew. A friend. Or a boyfriend. Or a husband. One of the posters even implied that unless a woman decided to go through the hell of reporting her crime, she had nothing to complain about - almost like she DESERVED the attack.
Perhaps the IMPRESSION given by some of the posters in that thread was false. Perhaps they are champions of women’s causes, and are the first in line to support women who have been raped. Perhaps they volunteer at rape-crisis centres in their spare time, and the IMPRESSION that they gave in their posts was due to the impersonality of the computer screen. However, if that is the case, I’m surprised that none of these posters have made a real concerted effort to either retract or rephrase their statements, instead leaving them out there, for people such as myself, to the the wrong(??) IMPRESSION.
You have to be responsible for your words, even if they are on a message board. With an issue as contentious as rape, with as much potential to hurt other readers, I would think people could try to be a bit sensitve to the feelings of other participants in the thread.
IMHO.
Told ya so, catsix. It’s not even a topic open to rational debate.
???
Am I willing to concede that the original statistics may have been inflated, falsely stated or made up?
Yep.
Am I willing to concede that some women make up their story for neferious purposes to harm innocent men?
Yep.
Am I willing to concede that the number of things that can potentially be considered a “Sexual Assult” is perhaps a tad TOO exaustive when it includes things like a pat on the butt?
Yep.
Do I think that SOME of the posters in that thread were insensitive, mysoginistic assholes in their attempt to make these points?
Yep.
Go ahead - debate. I just don’t think it would hurt to try to be a little sensitve about it.
I re-read what you said, alice.
I initially thought that you had deliberately misinterpreted catsix. I see now that you aren’t that extreme.
Peace.
[QUOTE[Women as a whole interact with men all their lives; they have fathers, brothers, grampas, uncles, husbands, friends, teachers, neighbors, etc, etc, and I don’t know any woman personally who wants to tar all of them with the same brush - even on message boards, even after being assaulted. That’s an idea I’d expect to find in 1970s radical feminist literature, and hardly ever in real life.[/QUOTE]
In real life, not me either.
If you want examples of it happening in cyber-space, join the Ms. message boards, and post something that questions the orthodoxy. You will get a flame-fest that makes the worst SDMB melt-down look like a petting party.
Rie - I understand your point. But I think at least some of the alleged accusations that women lie about rape were aimed at those who publish false or misleading statistics, not at women who report their personal experiences.
I hope it is possible to say “this figure is based on inadequate research” without saying “Women who claim they were raped are usually lying.” I hope.
Regards,
Shodan
I should also add that SOME of the posters in the original thread managed to argue my aforementioned points without being mysoginistic in the least, lest I be misinterpreted as believing that anyone that doesn’t 100% support one position or another is mysoginist.
So - if I misinterpreted what catsix said, please advise me of the true meaning of her question.
Yes, the nerve of them, the utter futility of rational debate. Just wanted to illustrate the scenario of what you are proposing though: to register, join their board, and then ‘question the orthodoxy.’ If that’s what the first posts are considered in the GD rape thread, that consists of :
- Just a WAG, but it sounds like BS to me. You also have to consider that not all women who claimed to have been “raped” have actually been “raped”.
or
- The definition of “rape” has evolved to the point that just about any sexual episode can be construed as rape by one party on another.
or
- I think this particular statistic was made up. No, seriously!
mind you, you’re in a forum for, by, and about feminists - it probably says so in big green letters over the door - and responses like this are guaranteed to piss off a number of rational people who don’t share that cause. In that case I don’t think the flame-fest would be entirely undeserved.
Here, well, it’s different…you have a number of nonpolitical opinions, male and female, victim and non-victim alike, saying that it’s possible that those numbers are correct, that it seems to occur frequently. Isn’t it possible to address those opinions instead of Brownmiller’s from 1975?
I feel compelled to to comment on this because it illustrates one of the basic problems with these statistics.
**
Perhaps, but I’ll bet that this would win the prize for the most underreported crime on earth.
Nor, let’s face it, is it generally as serious. Males are neither genetically nor socially wired to view being “raped” by a women the same way as women view rape. If a man gets drunk at a party and a women drags him home and forces herself on him, he would be far more likely to brag about the encounter than to feel violated and guilty.
**
No, it’s not. It is technically impossible for a women to rape a women, just as it is technically impossible for a man to rape a man.
It is certainly not, however, impossible for a women to sexually abuse another women and this is where the problem comes in. It is handy, and more dramatic, to group a whole variety of things under the banner of “rape.” But unless you understand precisely how the term is defined, the statistics are meaningless. It is one thing to say that 1 out of 4 college women will be physically forced to have sex against their will. It is another thing entirely to say that 1 out of 4 college women will be physically forced to have sex against their will or will have sex while drunk.
I mention this point because some people have reacted strongly to women who have been victimized being asked how they define “rape.” Unfortunately, this is a fair, and indeed, necessary, question since so many different people have their own, unique definitions.
You’re going to have to provide some more explanation Truth for how:
Is your definition of rape so narrow that it only encompasses a penis going into a vagina?
Maybe it will be eye opening if we could show some stats just from the SDMB.
You can take an anonymous poll in this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=165834
Main Entry: rape
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2 a : sexual intercourse with a woman by a man without her consent and chiefly by force or deception – compare STATUTORY RAPE b : unlawful sexual intercourse by force or threat other than by a man with a woman
3 : an outrageous violation
Well, according to the definition that’s been bandied around both threads - ie - anal, vaginal or oral penetration, including with a foreign object, it certainly IS possible for a man to rape a man, or a woman to rape a woman.
Secondly, your ascertation that:
is insensitive in the extreme.
Just because YOU might brag about some woman forcing herself on you, other man may not.
Re: definitions - I don’t know if this is the right place to put this or not (but with the recent spate of rape-related train wrecks, I suppose one place is as good as any). Please forgive the hijak.
In Canada there is no crime called ‘rape’, only ‘sexual assault’ with varying degrees of severity (aggrivated, with a weapon, etc). The site is here.
I think it’s fantastic, because it saves all that BS about ‘it’s not rape if it’s not penetrative’ etc. The essential features of rape, as far as I’m concerned, is that it is unwelcome and sexual. Details beyond that are unimportant in determining if a sexual assault happened.
I feel like in America, it is necessary to justify your experience in order to get charges laid (‘But your Honour, he really did rape me, because he put his …’ etc) but in Canada you need say ‘He touched me sexually without my consent’ and that’s all that’s necessary for the crime to be recognized.
Now, I’m not suggesting that this is all that’s necessary to secure a conviction. But it seems all this rape talk lately has centred around ‘was the crime actually committed,’ and what I find horrifying is the idea that someone feels they have the right to decide if what happened to a woman is rape or not. She was the one that was there, and if she felt violated (whether by having her breast grabbed on the subway or by being penetrated at knifepoint) then she was violated, and no one can change that. Denying it is denying her reality, her experience, her right to sovereignty over her body. Only once you accept that it actually happened can you start getting into questions of seriousness, and whether he knew what he was doing etc.
Just because I’ve been rather cranky about it, Cowgirl, both men and women can be rapists (or sexual assulters), and both men and women can be raped (sexually assulted).
When you focus on one sex as the perpitrator and one sex as the victim, you’re contributing to the feeling of men vs. women that seems to be present in the threads already (incorrectly present, IMHO).
Apart from that
YAH!! What cowgirl said!
Wait a minute, if a guy rams his penis up my male ass, that isn’t a rape? Boy, I sure bet it would feel like a rape. And if a girl straps on a dildo and shoves it in another girl’s vagina, that isn’t rape? What if the girl straps on a dildo and puts it up my ass, is that rape? (Presuming all nonsensual.) Really confused here, I was under the impression that any sort of penetration, natural or with an object, was rape. I’m pretty sure that’s the definition here in Missouri.
You’re right. Sorry, alice - and anyone else.
All it takes for a sexual assault is for anyone to be touched, sexually, without their consent. The law is completely gender-neutral. Which would also address discussions such as these.
**
Every man I know or know of who has had this happen to him felt violated and guilty. Some “bragged” about the encounter to those who knew about it in order to cover up their shame and guilt, but none actually felt proud or happy about it.
Technically impossible under your fanciful personal definition of rape perhaps, but we try to speak standard English around here. It helps avoid confusion.