Jesus Camp: Evangelical Christians "taking back" America

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
You know, I don’t think kids EVER went away for weeklong religious camps before Bush II was elected. I bet he’s sending 'em federal funds under his special Black Ops program that previously was devoted to Roswell crash research.
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Whereas I don’t think that anyone has mentioned Bush fils until post #17. Y’know, the one that came from you? O’course, I’m always willing to be corrected, so why don’t you rush to do so?

And as anyone with an iota of common sense can tell you, the Roswell project has been shelved for decades. Black Ops is all about Bigfoot again.

[QUOTE=nano8track]
They picked one of the more unusual Vacation Bible Schools they could find and made a documentary about it to scare liberals everywhere lol.
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I’m not sure that “unusual” does justice to this particular VBS. Hell, “more unusual” seems to miss the point by several degrees.

And asterion: Now that’s thinking outside of the box.

So terribly sorry, but teaching children that they should be willing to lay down their lives for any cause sounds a great deal like the sort of crap that was spouted by the Hitler Youth, with an end result that seems too similar to suicide bombers for my taste.

42

[QUOTE=nano8track]
A. Not that I’m a conservative, but I missed the part where they were pushing a political agenda. Maybe there’s another clip out there that is all prayer in schools, pro-life, and capital punishment? I didn’t see that one.

B. All kids in this camp are there because they wanted to be there or their parents did. I get far more nervous when a political party tries to push their message in a public elementary school whether it be Republican or Democrat (or Communist or Nazi).

C. It’s obvious to me that they picked some type of charismatic denomination. IMO this is a cheap shot because to anyone not familiar with this type of denomination it can can seem really weird. (I know it seemed really weird to me when I first found out about it.) They could have easily found a Vacation Bible School where the kids were falling asleep in the pews, but I bet that would have made much less entertaining film, lol.

I don’t think this VBS is representative of a typical VBS in the US and may or may not be representative of a charismatic VBS. It like a sensationalist documentary, which is why I said, “it was made to scare liberals”. (I watch a fair amount of documentaries and the theatres seem to be about 70% liberal, 30% moderate, and 0% conservative.)
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There is a section from a link about training them to be leaders

Maybe this means just leading people to be better people, as in, more Christ like. I hope so. It isn’t blatently political language but it hints doesn’t it?
How about this.

I have no problem with people wanting something better for our society. Lord knews we need it. {pun intended} I get concerned when people who claim to worship Jesus and God use language that seperates 'us" from “them”
When describing “Our Purpose” on the site it does not mention a political agenda.
from the section on beliefs I have a few problems.

If they are focusing on the principles of love and brotherhood that Jesus taught then great. I hope that is their first priority. I just think that people who claim to worship the truth ought to activly seek it, and people who believe these things haven’t spent much time doing that. Thats just me.

43

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
Liberals SHOULD be scared. So should conservatives. The religious right has been getting progressively more and more theocratic, anti-social, hostile, fanatic and anti-American in its rhetoric for years now. It’s easy to say they’re a minority but they’re becoming less and less of a minority all the time and some of their theocratic beliefs are almost mainstream. A majority of Americans would like to teach a creation myth as “science” in public schools, for instance. A majority also believes that homosexuals should be denied equal rights because they believe (wrongly) that their Bible tells them so. The brainwashing that goes on at those Bible camps is frighteningly similar to what happens in Iran and Saudi Arabia. The more light that’s thrown on them, the better.
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What exactly makes you so sure that the people in this trailer represent the Religious Right? I didn’t see anything in it about wanting to take the teaching of evolution out of schools or homosexuals, but I might’ve missed it.

44

[QUOTE=jjimm]
Bloody hell, I googled “Kids on Fire” - look at the pictures. That’s frightening. Poor wee kids.:dubious:
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Whoa. Usually a summer camp doesn’t advertise with prominent pictures of the little ones crying.

45

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
Yeah, and I’m sure they edited it to highlight the most extreme quotes.
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That’s what I figured, that this documentary is probably biased and shows only quotes taken out of context and in the most extreme light.

But then I read a few reviews online, all of which praised the movie’s “well-rounded” portrayal, and unbiased viewpoint.

And it seems that Pastor Becky Fisher, the minister who leads these things, had this to say about the documentary:

[QUOTE=Pastor Fisher]
I’ve only seen [the film] one time, and I was still processing what was left out and left in. [But from] what I’ve seen, I think [Grady and Ewing] did a great job. I think they captured the beautiful concepts of what we represent.
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For those who don’t see anything political about the camp, we have this (from the same article):

[QUOTE= Pastor Fisher]
When we took out [an] image of Bush, it turned political, but to us, it’s not political - it’s Biblical.
[/QUOTE]

Look, I went to a very conservative church as a kid. I attended VBS every summer, including camp retreats. They were never like this. This not only scares me, it worries me, because I fear this is now the face of American Christianity.

46

I have seen TV documentaries on similar camps run by the Ku Klux Klan–back in the 1970’s and more recently (maybe 10 years ago). There have always been a few fanatics running around.
American society seems to have survived.
We need to be aware of them, but not scared of them.

47

[QUOTE=bluethree]
Whoa. Usually a summer camp doesn’t advertise with prominent pictures of the little ones crying.
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Not summer camp. Jesus Camp. And if anything was gonna make me weep copiously, it would be the thought of spending any amount of time listening to someone talk about Jesus and laying down my life for him.

Little pisher hasn’t done a damned thing for me of late.

48

Jesus doesn’t blog. Can’t type. Can’t swim either, according to reports.

49

[QUOTE=chappachula]
I have seen TV documentaries on similar camps run by the Ku Klux Klan–back in the 1970’s and more recently (maybe 10 years ago). There have always been a few fanatics running around.
American society seems to have survived.
We need to be aware of them, but not scared of them.
[/QUOTE]
There’s a big difference between a group that’s held a well-earned pariah status for the last 50 years and evangelical christiandom, which has a solid foot-hold and undue influence in American politics today. I’d say we need to do a little more than simply “be aware” of them.

50

[QUOTE=El_Kabong]
Granted, I’ve only seen the trailer, but there seems to be a political component to the teachings of this particular camp. In the trailer, amongst other things, there is a sequence in which the kids are reciting a reworded, more “Christian” Pledge of Allegiance,
<snip>
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Not exactly. They were pledging allegiance to [the Christian flag](Christians - Wikipedia flag), which is entirely different than the US flag. When I was a kid, I learned te pledge to the Christian flag which goes something like this: “I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands. One brotherhood, uniting all Christians, in service and in love.” I believe there are other versions, as well.

As a child, I recited the pledge and thought nothing of it. But now, I absolutely hate it. It serves to subconsciously tie the Christian and American flas together, which in turn ties Christianity to Americanism in the eyes of the kids. The message, as I understand it, is that patriotism isn’t possible without Christianity (and vice versa). And so many Christians spew this sort of bullshit that it has become the mainstream Christian view. “God bless America” et al. I’ve read the Bible, and I’ve found no mention of America yet. And this intermingling of what it means to be an American and what it means to be a Christian has lead to a confusion between the two which is the reason we have so many stupid debates about Ten Commandments monuments and “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance (to the US flag).

And the “kids on fire” camp are right at the front of this movement. They’re trying to return America to a Christian nation, to the point that they’d be willing to die. But that’s not the true call of Christianity. The goal of all Christians should be to do Christ’s work and spread His message. It should NOT be to force a country to believe as you do (and forced belief is not true belief anyway) and act as you think they should. It should NOT be to indoctrinate children who can’t begin to undertand what it truly means to be a Christian. The kids in the movie aren’t waving their hands in the air because they’re moved by the Holy Spirit; they’re waving them because they’ve seen adults and other kids do it. And that’s how the vast, vast majority of Christian churches in the US act: do this, don’t do that (can’t you read the signs?) The message should be “Love God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, love your fellow man, try to show others how Christ works through you, do good works, never stop trying to understand God and get closer to Him, and live the most Christ-like life you can.”

And that message doesn’t require “taking back a country”

51

I only intended the above to give information about the Christian Flag to El_Kabong, not go into a rant about the state of Christianity in America. Feel free to ignore the rest.

52

[QUOTE=Maastricht]
Is the purpose of this documentary actually to advocate this sort of religious indoctrination? Or to shame it? Or is it sorta neutral?
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I believe it’s meant to be for the most part neutral, but you also have to understand who the primary audience is.

I live in Tennessee, i.e. Red State USA. We have about 8-10 movie theatres in my city, and only one of them ever shows documentaries. When they do show a documentary it stays for only one week. If you talk to any of the other people in the theatre, which I often do, you’ll find they are mostly liberal or some of them are moderate. Conservatives do not watch these movies. If I mention a documentary to any conservative I know they usually have never heard of it. (Notable exceptions are “Farenheit 911” and “An Inconvenient Truth”.)

These documentaries may be more popular in the Northeast or West Coast, but those are more liberal areas of the country. In the end you have to realize that for the US this movie is made to be watched by liberals.

53

Actually, the primary audience is intended to be as much red staters as blue, and not just your arthouse/urban types. When Michael Moore’s documentary film festival announced, per their prior agreement, that they would be showing Jesus Camp, the filmmakers protested, asking that it be pulled–specifically because they thought that having Moore’s name associated with the film (even though it wasn’t an endorsement) would hurt its prospects in more conservative communities. Moore showed the film anyway and the “controversy” fizzled out after that, but I think that’s a clear indication that they’re hoping to aim just as much for the Passion of the Christ demographic as any other (though screen count will still play a big part in how effective that strategy is).

54

[QUOTE=Mayo Speaks!]
I only intended the above to give information about the Christian Flag to El_Kabong, not go into a rant about the state of Christianity in America. Feel free to ignore the rest.
[/QUOTE]

That’s fine. I hadn’t heard about this Christian pledge before, heathen that I am. Thanks for the info.

55

[QUOTE=El_Kabong]
Likewise, I don’t see how the line quoted at various points about “taking America back for Christ” can be considered anything but a political statement.
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I’m still not convinced that it’s political, but I’m not convinced you’re wrong either. I’m just not willing to jump to that conclusion either way until I get more info.

Yeah we have that in the US. It’s called elementary school. Unless you have the resources for private or home schooling your kids have to learn what the state wants to teach them. To me the most scary thing is that both conservatives and liberals often want the state to teach some part of the party message to little kids: Pro/no prayer, pro/no gay, creation/evolution, etc… Is it really imperative that little kids be faced with these issues? Once they reach middle school age they can certainly discern a lot better what they think is right. Is it really imperative that we have the state teach conservative/liberal propganda to little children?

That scares me far more than anything from those video clips. This is a small group with far less power than the state has.

Yeah I can see parallels, but the difference is I don’t see any message of hate being portrayed, nor do I see a political agenda being pushed. To be fair though I don’t really see any positive message either (love, tolerance, charity, etc…). Either they didn’t really show the camp’s message in this clip, or they’re simply stirring these kids up, but not giving them any direction. It’s not great, but it’s not horrible either.

I imagine this VBS is affiliated with some church. Like I said before I don’t know if this is typical for Pentacostals or not, but I’m fairly certain that it fits with along with the message of the church it’s affiliated with.

56

[QUOTE=nano8track]
Yeah we have that in the US. It’s called elementary school. Unless you have the resources for private or home schooling your kids have to learn what the state wants to teach them. To me the most scary thing is that both conservatives and liberals often want the state to teach some part of the party message to little kids: Pro/no prayer, pro/no gay, creation/evolution, etc… Is it really imperative that little kids be faced with these issues? Once they reach middle school age they can certainly discern a lot better what they think is right. Is it really imperative that we have the state teach conservative/liberal propganda to little children?
[/quote]

Dunno what elementary schools are like in your particular red state, but every one that I’ve ever encountered has such secular boogeymen as reciting the pledge every morning. As to your list: fates forfend that the “party message” should be in line with the Constitution of the United States (pro/no prayer) (just in case anyone missed it, there exists the separation clause); one of tolerance (pro/no gay); or in line with actual science (creation/evolution). As a matter of fact, here in my neck of the woods, the whole issue of creation v. evolution is a non-starter in the elementary grades. It’s only, “Once they reach middle school age,” that it is even lightly touched on. And as I have pointed out, one is science, the other, well, most assuredly is not.

So, do you have any instances of the state teaching elementary school students that prayer is a baaaad thing? Or that creationism is a load of crap? If so, I would like to see them.

57

[QUOTE=nano8track]
Yeah we have that in the US. It’s called elementary school. Unless you have the resources for private or home schooling your kids have to learn what the state wants to teach them. To me the most scary thing is that both conservatives and liberals often want the state to teach some part of the party message to little kids: Pro/no prayer, pro/no gay, creation/evolution, etc…
[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, I simply do not believe many public schools teach for or against prayer and “gay.” I really, sincerely doubt that any public school is actively teaching kids that prayer is wrong or ineffective. You are welcome to provide evidence to the contrary.

As to evolution, it is scientific fact, irrespective of what your political affiliation is. If the schools aren’t going to teach scientific fact in science class, what do you propose they teach?

58

I’ve been debating on another board with a guy who is a youth pastor and is (I’m not counting out-and-out nutcases like Phelps) the most extreme Christian right-wing fundamentalist I have ever encountered (and I’ve met quite a few, so that is saying something) - he’s actually more or less impossible to engage in discussion, because he reflexively brushes aside any dissenting opinion as not worth dealing with because it is the work of liberals and atheists. how does he identify liberals and atheists? why, by their dissenting views, of course!

One thing he said that actually physically sickened me was that people shouldn’t think; the only human thought that is actually necessary is the absolute bare minimum required to read the Bible and do what it says (or rather, what he claims it says). And this guy is in charge of young impressionable people. Shocking, sad.

59

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
One thing he said that actually physically sickened me was that people shouldn’t think; the only human thought that is actually necessary is the absolute bare minimum required to read the Bible and do what it says (or rather, what he claims it says). And this guy is in charge of young impressionable people. Shocking, sad.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds as if our Ms Fischer has a potential new employee. And just think, you could be responsible for their coming together. Makes ya kinda tingly, dunnit?

60

Yeah, kind of.

Thing is, these folks have a diminished sense of connection with day-to-day reality. For most ordinary people out there walking the streets, there are probably at least half a dozen inbuilt checks and balances that, if they went just a bit loopy in the head, would serve to prevent them becoming the next [insert name of charismatic fruitbat cult-leader/serial killer here].
These folks, on the other hand, have set about systematically excising those checks and balances from themselves.