Jesus Camp: Evangelical Christians "taking back" America

Great Debates
61

[QUOTE=nano8track]
I’m still not convinced that it’s political, but I’m not convinced you’re wrong either. I’m just not willing to jump to that conclusion either way until I get more info.
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[QUOTE=baronsabato from article]

A particularly inflammatory scene that heightens the political overtones for viewers takes place at a revival meeting lead by Fischer and her associates, in front of well over 100 children. In the scene, Fischer takes a life-size standup photo of President George W. Bush to the stage, and with a large American flag in the background, asks the crowd to raise their hands towards him in prayer.
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Just what would it take to convince you?

I don’t want to Godwinize this thread, but you guys who start yelling “tin-foil hats” when we liberals worry about the constitution and things like this so-called Bible Camp seem to have the idea that the Nazi movement came into power saying “Let’s set up death camps and kill all the Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, etc, after getting as much work out of them as we possibly can, while at the same time initiating a war on two fronts with most of the other nations in the world!” A lot of people in Germany thought that Hitler and his people were a lunatic fringe that couldn’t possibly come to power. They laughed at him. A few years later, they were joining in, getting out, or dying.

Very Bad Things don’t usually start out big. They start out small and grow. If a kid has been taught to lay down his life for Name-Your-Cause, how hard do you think it would be to get him to beat someone up for that cause? How about to lie for it? Thugs and lies are often the means by which dictators come to power.

I don’t think this camp should be shut down. This is a free country, and these people have a right to believe whatever they want to. But I’m delighted to know that the rest of America can readily learn about their existence. I’d love to see this documentary broadcasted on the evening news!

In the meantime, while I’m not going to lose any sleep over it, you’ll forgive me if I do worry a little. I’m especially concerned when I see people with real power right now pandering to this kind of thing.

62

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
One thing he said that actually physically sickened me was that people shouldn’t think; the only human thought that is actually necessary is the absolute bare minimum required to read the Bible and do what it says (or rather, what he claims it says). And this guy is in charge of young impressionable people. Shocking, sad.
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This reminds me of a really freaky thing I encountered recently. My dad (who recently got confirmed for the first time, aged 60-something, having travelled spiritually from agnostic to committed Episcopalean while in the US, so he’s not a cynical atheist like me) helped run a rehabilitation charity for disabled people. The co-director of the charity was a pastor. And whenever a problem or challenge arose, the pastor did nothing about it. Dad started to question the guy - “here’s the problem, and I’ve got ideas about how to fix it”. “No,” the guy would reply, “we should do nothing. God will provide.” Even stuff like a broken printer, that my dad offered to fix. Nope. God would provide a new one if they were patient enough. And so the charity festered, doing no good at all, and after a few years Dad just got pissed off and resigned.

What is going through these people’s heads? Surely God provided the pastor with a brain with which to work out how to fix problems, given a little self-education. That kind of attitude is insane to me, and horribly remniscent of Imams who run “learn nothing but the Koran” madrassars.

63

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
Thing is, these folks have a diminished sense of connection with day-to-day reality. For most ordinary people out there walking the streets, there are probably at least half a dozen inbuilt checks and balances that, if they went just a bit loopy in the head, would serve to prevent them becoming the next [insert name of charismatic fruitbat cult-leader/serial killer here].
These folks, on the other hand, have set about systematically excising those checks and balances from themselves.
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Which is why they scare the freakin’ bejabbers outta me. Especially when they start in on taking “back” a nation that was never theirs to begin with. Because since they’ve eliminated the checks and balances that exist in others, they are more likely to become the next wingnut, and do something really asinine and harmful to a whole lot of people who had the audacity to disagree with their version of what is right and good. And as has been shown, that’s seldom a good thing.

And jjimm: I’ve encountered people like that. And while they’re a pain in the ass, their latter day nihilist approach doesn’t seem to creep me out the way that the subjects of Jesus Camp do. After all, if you’re just sitting around on your ass waiting for God to provide, then nothing will happen and soon you’ll have to find meaningful work elsewhere. Whereas if you’re running a Jesus madrassah like the one in the OP, you’ve got people sending their kids to you for indoctrination. And the problem with kids is they eventually grow up to be adults. Indoctrinated adults.

64

I remember I was working a summer job in an electronics store, and this woman decided to buy a mid-price computer with accessories–all easily in the 4-digit range. When I rang up the total, she said she’d be paying in cash, and opened her purse and starting laying out Benjamin Franklins, one after another.

I asked, “Wow, aren’t you a little concerned about carrying around all the cash?” And she said, “No, I’m a Christian.” That’s it–her full explanation.

Lady, so am I, but I’d like to think God gave me a little common sense.

65

[QUOTE=jjimm]
This reminds me of a really freaky thing I encountered recently. My dad (who recently got confirmed for the first time, aged 60-something, having travelled spiritually from agnostic to committed Episcopalean while in the US, so he’s not a cynical atheist like me) helped run a rehabilitation charity for disabled people. The co-director of the charity was a pastor. And whenever a problem or challenge arose, the pastor did nothing about it. Dad started to question the guy - “here’s the problem, and I’ve got ideas about how to fix it”. “No,” the guy would reply, “we should do nothing. God will provide.” Even stuff like a broken printer, that my dad offered to fix. Nope. God would provide a new one if they were patient enough. And so the charity festered, doing no good at all, and after a few years Dad just got pissed off and resigned.
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Reminds me of the time when we had a power failure half an hour before curtain-up on the opening night of a musical production I was in; I’ve mentioned it here before, but essentially what happened is that one group of people wanted to call an electrician they happened to know, the others explicitly wanted that not to happen; they just wanted us to pray. They were courteously found a quiet side room to pray in, and the door was closed while we contacted the electrician, who arrived in minuts, found the fault (an under-rated fuse that had blown) and fixed it. The lights came back on and there was a loud shout of praise from the room where the prayer group had gone to.

Thing is, this is a bit of a commonly-occuring meme amongst evangelical Christians; God is reduced to a sort of wish-fulfilment genie, and the whole question of who is subject and who is sovreign appears turned on its head. I will admit to being victim to it myself in the past; it’s a terribly attractive idea to imagine that you can control the actions of a powerful supernatural entity to your own benefit.

66

A massive flood swept through the Mississippi valley. There was a man, a devout Christian, who’d managed to climb to the roof of his house before the floodwaters trapped him inside. After a few minutes, two locals in a rowboat came along and offered to carry him to safety. The man told them, “No, no…rescue those of lesser faith. God will provide for me.”

An hour later, the state police sailed by in a motorboat, and offered to carry him to safety. He answered, again, “No, God will provide.”

Finally, a state helicopter came along and lowered him a ladder. He told them, “No, leave me alone. God will provide for my safety.”

At last, soaking wet and exposed to the elements, the man died of hypothermia. Well, of course he went straight to Heaven, being a man of great faith. On arrival in the Divine Court, the man confronted God directly. “Why didn’t you rescue me? I have had total faith in you my whole life and you just left me to die!”

God answered, “I sent you two boats and a me-damn helicopter! What more do you want?!”

67

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
God is reduced to a sort of wish-fulfilment genie
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Yes, when I was a child I used to know a Very Famous And Important Person from Texas, whom I shall not name here, who had been SavedAndFilledWithTheLoveOfJesus, and one time I was sitting next to him in a car as my parents were looking for a parking space in London, and I overheard him whispering “Lord, I pray, please find us a parking space.” (When I was 17 I went and stayed with him, and the dude gave me Chick tracts as well. :mad: )

Then there’s the apparentl modern evangelical view of tithing, which I only learned about on the SDMB, which strikes me as even more insane than that…

68

Trouble is that when you are embedded in a culture that explicity suppresses doubt, indeed perhaps attempts to suppress all superfluous thinking (that’s so damn Orwellian, it’s scary), it can sometimes be easier just to let yourself be carried along with the current.

69

[QUOTE=jjimm]
Then there’s the apparentl modern evangelical view of tithing, which I only learned about on the SDMB, which strikes me as even more insane than that…
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You can’t stop there. I’ve been trying to keep track of the Christian evangelical movement (when my non-Christian friends are sputtering with outrage, it’s helpful to have moderate Christian responses ready to hand), but I’ve never heard anything about their tithing practices.

70

[QUOTE=GLWasteful]
Dunno what elementary schools are like in your particular red state, but every one that I’ve ever encountered has such secular boogeymen as reciting the pledge every morning. As to your list: fates forfend that the “party message” should be in line with the Constitution of the United States (pro/no prayer) (just in case anyone missed it, there exists the separation clause); one of tolerance (pro/no gay); or in line with actual science (creation/evolution). As a matter of fact, here in my neck of the woods, the whole issue of creation v. evolution is a non-starter in the elementary grades. It’s only, “Once they reach middle school age,” that it is even lightly touched on. And as I have pointed out, one is science, the other, well, most assuredly is not.

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Remembering my personal experience I don’t think I formally learned about evolution until 7th grade, so you do have a point. They did like to mention dinosaurs and stuff in elementary school, but that’s not exactly the same thing.

On the creation side I did find this site
http://www.homeschooldiscount.com/home2/AO_science_1st_grade.htm
which suggests to me that creationists are starting early. I’m sure this is homeschooling material, so who knows what grade they would start teaching creation material if allowed?

I’m not sure at the number. I was thinking of the “Heather Has Two Mommies” incident several years ago. I found some details on this site:
http://www.alyson.com/html/00_files/00_ednote/0400/0400heather10_03_int.html
with the final result being:

I don’t think you can say that the issue doesn’t exist.

Well they are praying “for” Bush and not “to” Bush lol. But seriously that is in a political sense small potatoes. Again in my part of the country some preachers have been known to tell their congregations who to vote for before an election. That is definitely a political movement.

Watching these clips what I see is something that is foreign enough to anyone with some Pentacostal background, that you can’t totally judge what’s going on from a 1-2 minute clip. Now maybe if we went to the facility we’d find bombs that can be strapped to the kids chests in order to “take back America”, but I sincerely doubt it. I’m hearing people compare this to a Nazi or Al Queda training facility, so that is what you think is there right? :rolleyes:

71

Sure, I wouldn’t expect to find bombs in the frame at this stage, but the psychology is certainly comparable, IMO. They’re instilling a rather narrow and intolerant worldview upon these kids, and I think history has shown time and again that collections of people with narrow, intolerant views often find it a fairly short moral step to enacting violence upon those who they perceive as opposing or impeding them.

72

And they don’t see the connection as being inappropriate. It’s idol worship isn’t it?

The “us” vs “them” thing is one of my main objections about how much of organized religion is taught. Jesus taught the brotherhood of all men. America being described as a Christian nation and the urgency to make it seem just that. The term 'founded on Christian principles" really gets me. The idea that any principles are uniquely Christian is just wrong and to me offensive. Do they really think that love, mercy, forgiveness, justice etc were invented by Christians or America, Get a grip on reality people. If you worship the truth then stop deluding yourself.

One of the problems I see is that the emotionalism and the “high” that people feel is grounded in some bit of reality and a human need. Gather together with others who support and encourage you and sing about love and brotherhood and the feeling that “this is right and true” is very powerful. People associate themselves with a select group with certain beliefs rather than mankind. That is not what Jesus taught. The pressure to agree with what this group believes is pretty strong. When the beliefs are attacked it is too often seen as attacking Jesus and his teachings.

And a big Amen! To me that’s the correct approach. Keep teaching people that it’s about love and truth. Love Jehovah, love Allah, Love the great spirit, love the Buddha, it’s all the same. Extend the principles of love, mercy, compassion, mercy, and justice to all people and live accordingly.

73

[QUOTE=nano8track]
I’m not sure at the number. I was thinking of the “Heather Has Two Mommies” incident several years ago. I found some details on this site:

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The fact that the Senate chose to pass a measure against “teaching” homosexuality doesn’t mean it’s happening. Look at all the fuss about the “War on Christmas” that wasn’t really happening.

The inclusion of gay couples in textbooks is no more a case of “teaching” homosexuality than including black characters is “teaching” interracial sex. The existence of gay people is not something for anyone to debate; it is fact. Whether or not it’s a sin is not a matter for schools to teach, but I see no evidence they’re teaching it. There’s simply not any indoctrination going on here.

74

[QUOTE=nano8track]

Well they are praying “for” Bush and not “to” Bush lol. But seriously that is in a political sense small potatoes. Again in my part of the country some preachers have been known to tell their congregations who to vote for before an election. That is definitely a political movement.

Watching these clips what I see is something that is foreign enough to anyone with some Pentacostal background, that you can’t totally judge what’s going on from a 1-2 minute clip. Now maybe if we went to the facility we’d find bombs that can be strapped to the kids chests in order to “take back America”, but I sincerely doubt it. I’m hearing people compare this to a Nazi or Al Queda training facility, so that is what you think is there right? :rolleyes:
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Do you think the desire to legislate beliefs into our constitution and federal and state law is as dangerous as a bomb? IMHO if they are praying for Bush in the sense that they think “finally we have a good Christian president” then they have no genuine concept of who Bush is or what Jesus actually taught. It is not inappropriate for the religious to pray for their leaders. It is completely inappropriate to recite a Christian pledge of allegiance to a “christian” flag next to an American flag and to bring out an image of Bush as a christian leader who should be supported. It’s a golden calf with a Jesus mask on it.

75

[QUOTE=nano8track]
On the creation side I did find this site
http://www.homeschooldiscount.com/home2/AO_science_1st_grade.htm
which suggests to me that creationists are starting early. I’m sure this is homeschooling material, so who knows what grade they would start teaching creation material if allowed?
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You’re “sure” it’s homeschooling material? Gee, didja get that idea from the URL? And as to what grade religious homeschoolers start teaching their kids about creationism? I’ll guess it starts sometime around birth. Does that count as kindergarten? Or pre-school? Pre-pre-school, maybe?

“For”, “To”, seems a small difference to me. Rest assured, if these kids were old enough to vote, they would be told who to vote for. As it is, they’re simply being told to acquiesce to someone in charge. I don’t think it takes a lot of imagination to connect the dots from there to voting as they’re instructed when they achieve the age of majority. Indoctrination is indoctrination.

76

[QUOTE=nano8track]
A. Not that I’m a conservative, but I missed the part where they were pushing a political agenda.
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It was on the home page in big gray letters:

77

Well, y’know, gray can be a fairly invisible color.

78

[QUOTE=nano8track]
I believe it’s meant to be for the most part neutral, but you also have to understand who the primary audience is.

I live in Tennessee, i.e. Red State USA. We have about 8-10 movie theatres in my city, and only one of them ever shows documentaries. When they do show a documentary it stays for only one week. If you talk to any of the other people in the theatre, which I often do, you’ll find they are mostly liberal or some of them are moderate. Conservatives do not watch these movies. If I mention a documentary to any conservative I know they usually have never heard of it. (Notable exceptions are “Farenheit 911” and “An Inconvenient Truth”.)

These documentaries may be more popular in the Northeast or West Coast, but those are more liberal areas of the country. In the end you have to realize that for the US this movie is made to be watched by liberals.
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You realize that films in limited release ususally open on the “liberal” coast cities like NY, LA, and SF. Well take a look at where this movie is opening: Kansas, Missouri, Texas, Oklahoma and Colorado. Guess how many of those are blue states? Hint: it’s less than one.

79

[QUOTE=chappachula]
I have seen TV documentaries on similar camps run by the Ku Klux Klan–back in the 1970’s and more recently (maybe 10 years ago). There have always been a few fanatics running around.
American society seems to have survived.
We need to be aware of them, but not scared of them.
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The Ku Klux Klan? You mean the terrorist group that was responsible for the murder of thousands of people while opperating as the de facto government for large parts of this country, for almost thirty years? The Ku Klux Klan which subverted courts of law, fixed elections, practiced extra-judicial executions, and routinely terrorized anyone they perceived as an enemy to their belief system? The Ku Klux Klan which was arguably the greatest threat to the Union since Lee surrendered at Appomattox? That Ku Klux Klan?

Yeah, that analogy works for me. Let’s run with it.

80

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
Sure, I wouldn’t expect to find bombs in the frame at this stage, but the psychology is certainly comparable, IMO. They’re instilling a rather narrow and intolerant worldview upon these kids, and I think history has shown time and again that collections of people with narrow, intolerant views often find it a fairly short moral step to enacting violence upon those who they perceive as opposing or impeding them.
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Narrow and intolerant how? Please be specific. I don’t see anything from the clips about the camp being exclusionary, nor do I see them wanting to force every person in the world to follow their ideology. On the other hand in this very thread someone has said:

Someone in this thread has already said that the entire world should be intolerant of this group. This is not even mentioning the general bashing toward evangelicals that several posts have made not related to the debate. Either you need to provide specific details how this group is being more intolerant than the posters in this thread, or you are suggesting that there are several sociopaths that frequent these boards. :eek:

Either you’re trying to put words into my mouth or you don’t know what we’re debating. My point was that both parties like to sometimes push their agenda on little children through schools. Including “Heather has Two Mommies” in the curriculum is part of the liberal agenda. Not including it is part of the conservative agenda. Neither side can leave well enough alone.

Yeah but they might just pray for him because he’s the president. And when a Democrat is elected president (I hope) in two years they might just pray for him the same way. I guess I’m one of the few posters in this thread that doesn’t auotmatically want to assume the worst about this group.

Those are all midwest states though. It may be that midwestern conservatives are more interested in documentaries, but that list of movie locations doesn’t include many spots in the south. 2nd and 3rd week has plenty of spots in NY, CA and IL. Look at the whole list and only 1 city in Florida is there and Atlanta is not even included. So I will amend my previous statement to, “Southern conservatives do not watch documentaries, including this one.”

Lol :smack:
I missed the obvious, but I watched the first clip again and noticed the statistics that they were quoting were not for Pentacostal summer camps or even Pentacostal churches, but for Evangelical churches in general. Then I read some of the reviews which said the makers are trying to use this summer camp as a backdrop to talk about the Evangelical political movement in the U.S.

Most importantly if you read this review: http://www.lokifilms.com/site/JCpress/press_4.html
It says that the film is basically fair and evenhanded except for about 10-15 minutes of politcal commentary that the makers decided to put in.

It looks like the movie isn’t about a bunch of kids that want to take over the government after all. :slight_smile: