Absolutely, and you can touch me, see me, and hear me, if you come to DC. I have (had, actually)a picture on the People pages. I’m real-people who are alive now have met me in the flesh. None has seen Jesus in the flesh. I communicate with you in realtime with messageboard posts. I have a phone number–you can call me.
Can you do any of that with God, or is he just a voice in your head?
gobear,
I don’t know if I agree that a relationship must be limited to what one can “see, hear or touch”. I do agree that a relationship with God transcends mere words written in a book, although they are definately part of that relationship.
I don’t know your feelings about God, whether you are an atheist, agnostic, whatever… but I do believe that when one witnesses a spectacular sunset they are having a one-on-one communication with God.
Even with this I can see the objection being raised, “ahh, it still boils down to something which must be perceived with senses”, and this is a valid objection. But I think that the real communication with God happens at a different level that is beyond our normal realm of consciousness. That’s why it’s called “spirit”. Nature merely acts as the instrument of communication. It communicates “spirit”.
You heart has four chambers and some blood, but no God. Invisible spirits that have no effect on the material world can be dismissed. I don’t believe in Yahweh for the same reasons you don’t beleive in Thoth or Papa Legba.
No, you’re witnessing light scattered by particulate matter in the atmosphere. If you’re using sunsets as an argument for the existence of the Hebrew sky god, then you might as well use it for the existence of Helios, Apollo, Ra, Surt, Surya, Shamash, and the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
Which part of that do you mean Lib? The idea of being perfect LIKE the particular god worshipped, or would just the idea of attaining moral perfection qualify? Are you asserting that the idea of using analougy to describe perfection is unique, or the perfection?
Or do you mean just the basic gist of that passage, which is: treat everyone the same (in this case, love them), without regard to whether or not they are your neighbor or enemy?
But I communicate with Jesus in realtime with prayer and meditation. And what’s the big deal about flesh? I’m sure you’re much more than your flesh. In fact, your flesh is rotting, but you’re spirit is beautiful and will never decay.
Now, Gobear. Heart: “The vital center and source of one’s being, emotions, and sensibilities … The repository of one’s deepest and sincerest feelings and beliefs … The most important or essential part” American Heritage
Apos wrote:
The Greek for “as your” is a genitive case. My question is who, before Jesus, taught the moral imperative that you are to be perfect, the same as God.
Well, gobear, while I can quite easily see why you might feel that “them Christians are going by what they read in the Bible” and not adhering to an observation of objective reality, in point of fact my own experience was that, while I was “living in my head” (thanks, Tris, for that handy phrase you supplied at dinner for what I had a hard time explaining to gobear about my earlier, sterile life), that was how I operated, and I was in fact a judgmental, dogmatic sort of individual.
Then I had an experience that can be quickly if vaguely described as “God talking to me” – but for which I prefer the concept that Larry Niven originated in having his viewpoint character explain how it felt to have one of the Grogs implant information in him telepathically. Somewhat paraphrased, “He knew with a crystal clarity things that he was aware that he had not known before, yet had no sense of having learned it.”
That was how it felt to experience God’s presence within me. I knew him as a loving and powerful entity other than myself, and the knowledge of that Presence was present but the memory of having learned it was not. And the result was a burning hunger to know Him, to know more of Him, and to do His will.
I made a hairy nuisance of myself for some time thereafter, and then had the second great experience of falling in love with the young man who became my ward and in spirit my son, the pictures of whom and of whose family you’ve seen.
And this was yet another of God’s gifts to me, because in his presence to me and mine to him, we healed each other’s broken spirits and he opened me up to the experience of being an integral human whose emotions are not “something that no good man can express” but which need to be suppressed (as my parents had taught me) but someone who can use reason and emotion, empathy and compassion, anger and love for the common good.
And it was an interesting experience to be acting as a father figure to him and finding myself telling him, not what I wanted to see him do, but rather what would be best for him in the long run (and we’re not talking religious morals here, but rather the living out of his life, the sorts of life decisions young men have to make as they pass from late adolescence into adulthood). I felt very strongly that I was mentally blocked from telling him anything but the right advice, even when what I wanted personally was something quite different.
Now, what you have here is my word on what happened. I’m quite aware that it’s possible that my experiences were self-delusion (in several hours of personal conversation, I can explain the logic that leads me to believe otherwise) or the actions of some entity other than the Christian God, whether objectively real or something I invented and externalized. But that’s my testimony in a nutshell as to why I counted myself in a relationship with God, and still do, with as much metaphor scraped off and explanation substituted as I can achieve in the time to compose one long post.
According to the Book I read, He was divine. I don’t consider the Qu’ran to be God’s word nor do I consider allah to be God. But to keep you from blowing a gasket I’ll say IMHO. One day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11
Guess what, H4E: Arab Christians call the deity of the New Testament “Allah.”
Every time something about Theology arises, you jump in, completely from out in left field. Please, I ask you yet again, learn about what you denigrate prior to denigrating it.
I’m not sure I really get your gist here Lib. Virtually all moral teachers throughout history discuss moral perfection: seems a pretty unavoidable idea in even advocating any sort of morality at all (it is, after all, an ideal of perfection), a direct implication of any “should.” Greek philosophy is riddled with the idea of the perfect ideal, including moral ideals.
I’m not sure what you think is significant about adding “, like god,” or even a new idea in Judiac thought (God is good, be like god?). Is that what you think is the revolution?
That’s not even getting into the question of how utterly empty the concept of “perfect” is alone. Yeah yeah, the idea of the good is to achieve it, and the ideal is the highest goal (and if you think there exists a being who objectifies this state: okay…). But what is good? That’s the dicey issue of morality.
Well, that is what the OP is about, Monty–“who do you say Jesus is?” She says, “Jesus is Lord!” so I guess that’s one vote for “God”.
Can we pleeeeeeeease not get sidetracked onto “what His4Ever does or does not know about other world religions”? 
BTW, I kinda like the idea of “God as Internet pixels”.
—I’m quite aware that it’s possible that my experiences were self-delusion—
That would be going too far. You might interpret them in a certain way that others would not. It is possible to give something the wrong interpretation without being deluded.
You must’ve missed the part in H4E’s posting about Allah not being God. Arabs exist, Christians exist, and yes even in existance are Arab Christians. Those last call the deity of the New Testament Allah.
Yeah and I saw him at a book signing last week - where he told me he’s working on a sequal Bible 2 - The Descent of God!
Should be in the shops for Christmas!
Jesus is an enigma that may be personally experienced at different levels of belief. Everything from “never heard of him” to
Son of God.
Oops, ranting again!
But why is the New Testament more authoritative than the Qu’ran? What makes the Christian conception of Jesus as Son of God true and Jesus as prophet of God not true?
And if H4E has a problem with Allah, then she’ll have conniptions over the Mexicans worshipping el Dios, the French praying to their deity, le bon Dieu, and the Koreans singing hymns to their god, Hanunim, who also had a son, Yesu.
Clearly, the Marxist identity of Jesus has been ignored. Except for Live of Brian.
Early on, He is a holy man. At His word, demons flee.
Later on, he is an ethicitian, an intellectual constuct.
Put another way:
Buffy the Vampire Slayer VS Bertand Russel.
Here endeth the lesson.
Yet again, gobear; well said.
Apos wrote:
That’s a very good answer to someone’s question, but let’s get back to my question for a moment.
I’m not asking anything complicated or loaded. I’m just asking whether you know of anyone who taught Jesus’ moral imperative before He did. The answer is either a name, a “no”, or an “I don’t know”.
If you find the syntax of the imperative too complex, you can reduce it to merely “Be God”.