Who Was Jesus, to you?

Great Debates
1

I got into a heavy discussion last night with a friend. Now, I’m not a Christian, I was raised a Jew but do not practice anything now. The discussion concerned how this particular friend viewed Jesus, and it got me thinking.

For all of the different varieties of Christianity on the planet, how many different ways are there to percieve who Jesus was when alive, and who He is now, if there is a perception of a now regarding Him.

I don’t have a strong feeling one way or the other but the heaviness of the discussion came about because my friend had definite feelings about just WHO He was and WHAT He meant to humankind. I wonder.

Who was Jesus, in your mind? Who is He now? I cannot imagine where else this belongs, than Great Debates but if somehow I’ve misplaced this thread, apologies in advance.

One request from the outset. May we please each present our beliefs and perceptions in here, for all to read and appreciate the contrasts and similiarities without any one person attacking another’s for what THEY believe? May we please keep this sharing of impressions and feelings from crossing from honestly passionate to anything less respectful?

Thanks.

Cartooniverse

2

Are atheists allowed?

Jesus Christ - Who was he: A charismatic Jew, who had a lot of really great ideas about love; a well-spoken teacher and leader who was wrongly persecuted and had a religion started in his name.

Jesus Christ - Who is he now: A charismatic Jew, who had a lot of really great ideas about love; a well-spoken teacher and leader who was wrongly persecuted and had a religion started in his name – whose been dead for about 2000 years.

3

That seems pretty reasonable to me, though I like to qualifly it by saying we’re not really sure of a lot of things about the guy, seeing as all we know about him comes from some second-hand accounts written decades after he died.

I like to say that Jesus is my favourite super-hero. He’s wise, eloquent, and kind, and an all-around good guy. You can always count on Jesus to do and say the right thing, and to make you think for yourself, helping you out by teaching through analogy. Like in many comic books, Jesus is an ordinary man with an extraordinary, superhuman component, and he has a connection to another world which is differnet from our own. And his superpowers are pretty cool, too. I mean, who needs to leap tall buildings when you can feed five thousand people from one basket of fish?

I didn’t read comic books as a child, but I did go to a christian school. And it seems to me you can get just as excited about Jesus as Superman. And he’s not just powerful and cool, he’s right. Plus, he loves you. Of course, while it’s fun to talk about it, and fantasize… you realize it’s all make-believe.

The vision of Jesus as a perfect, but human, wise, insightful, loving guy and a great teacher, who, if supernatural, still lives and can always be a companion and confidant is very appealing- either for the same reason that Superman, Captain Kirk, and Cecil Adams are cool, or for the same reason that a lonely child might turn to an imaginary friend. But I can’t believe in him for the same reason that I don’t like lying to my friends, or reporting data that I’m not certain of-- I get a feeling of guilt and the impression that I’m being a little dishonest.

Now, I hope that isn’t offensive to those who do truly believe in the divine nature of Christ. I guess it kind of looks like I’m making fun of your beliefs, talking about them the same way as Superman and all… I don’t mean to. I just see some parallels in the way people tell and value stories. I think the Gospel is a really great story, and that the author deserves a lot of praise. I’m just not convinced that that author is God. I’m not trying to belittle Christianity; I’ve just lost faith in belief.

4

Personally I agree with Jack Batty.

5

Add a third vote for Jack’s response (although I peg myself as agnostic).

6

To me, Jesus was the first really successful self-help guru.

By introducing the concept that the God of the Jews (known previously for damning entire races of people because of what one ancestor did) was ready at any time to forgive you your sins (errors), rather than judge you forever because of past acts, he empowered his listeners to look for ways to make positive changes in their lives. Much of the language in the gospels alludes to the idea that you may let go of any aspect of your life that prevents you from believing you can become a better person, whether it’s your neighbor’s judgements of your past acts, or your whole family.

Such empowerment, when given to simple people like fishermen, has incredible results. His followers could not even accept his death, he had changed their lives so deeply.

As a parallel, look at Elvis. He gave his listener’s the idea that you didn’t have to be black to make and revel in rock and roll. Even an idea that small has resulted in people believing he appears to them over a quarter century after his death.

Jesus made his followers believe they could enter heaven, and he still appears to people 2000 years later.

7

I once went to a lecture at my University. I believe it was the beginning of my freshman year. I can’t remember the author or the book, unfortunately. But um, it was really good.
Anyway, he started researching Jesus because the Passion play bothered him. Why would these people turn on Jesus when the scene before they absolutely loved him? Why would they choose to let a criminal go?
He did a lot of research—years and years. Brilliant man, wish I could remember his name. Probably will when the painkillers wear off.
Anywho, he postulated that the Gospels were written as propaganda. At the time, the Jews were not happy with the Romans, things were getting intense, what with the war and all. So, there were two options for dealing with the Romans. The pacifist, non-violent way or the violent way. In the story, Christ is actually a personification of the pacifist way, and a combination of several leaders who held that ideal. The criminal they choose to release over Jesus is the non-pacifist way. So in the story, the people reject that non-violence in favor of violence.
The theory is more in depth. It took an hour to explain, and an entire book, and I fear that I am not doing it justice. But that’s the gist of who/what I believe Jesus to be. I’m sorry if there are any glaring factual errors…

8

Did a quick search and found this bit of info on the book and the lecturer.

9

Great stuff so far, and I thank all the posters for speaking frankly while respecting the needs and beliefs of everyone else who may want to read and post into it.

Maybe it was seriously wussy of me to ask this kind of O.P. and not offer up an answer myself. -wary glance-

My desire to believe in God is tempered my a lot of things, and so I’m faithless at the moment. One of the core issues concerns Jesus. If He was indeed the son of God and was some kind of… amalgam of humanity and spirit, corporeal and able to trod our Earth, well then I’ll be seriously humbled.

Setting aside those issues, what I believe now and have for most of my life is that Jesus Christ was the most perfectly remarkable believer in many thousands of years. His message is just enormously appealing to me. My concern is that I’d throw my interest? faith? belief? love? into a persona and image that is not at all in step with reality.

The first Gospel was written 70 years after He died. Being generous about lifespans back then, that’s almost two complete generations. Boy…that’s rough. It only gets rougher from there, and by the time I consider Matthew, Mark, Luke AND John we’re well into the 150-year range ( if not farther, I cannot remember how late the last of the 4 Gospels was penned, to be honest ).

I think he was the most unlikely deliverer of a message that humankind- 2,000 years ago- was simply unable to process. The saddening thing to me is that 2,000 years later, almost all of humankind is still unable to process His message, whether it is a Diving one or one that grew into fruition purely in the mind of a “normal” man.

Who is he to me? A genius. A scholar of the human condition. A pacifist. A politician with a conscience. ( Imagine… ). A martyr. I love the idea of Him, and envy those who take His message as Divine Word.

In short, I don’t truly know. But, I’d add this as a way of clarifying my OP question: In your particular brand of faith, what were you TAUGHT, and how do you interpret and carry that teaching now as an adult?

This is most illuminating, by all means…carry on.

p.s. I just re-read the OP again, and just feel like the wording is exclusionary in a way. I wasn’t asking just Christians. I’m asking all of us. :slight_smile:

10

Jesus to me is some sort of mastermind. Had to be to create a religion that has lasted for this long.

11

What?? No! Jesus died circa AD 34. By the mid-60’s the gospels of Matthew and Luke had probably appeared. John, the latest gospel, is probably from the AD 80’s. The early fathers of the church (Polycarp for example) used phrases from these gospels, and since they lived before 150 years after Jesus, it’s clear that the gospels are pretty earlier.

“150-year range”. Geez, that’s the silliest thing I’ve seen on the boards in a while. Please do some research before you post stuff like that.

UnuMondo

12

Granted.

I was going to include a similar disclaimer, but I didn’t think it was really the point. I have really no valid reason to think he was a construct, a created character, or anything like that (as some atheists claim, or at least forward the notion of) … so I give the benefit of the doubt.

13

Having been raised “in church” Jesus will always be “The lamb of God.” The propitiation for my sins.

14

To me, Jesus was who the Bible says He was and is. While on earth He was God in the flesh (Colossians 2:9, John 14:8-9) and was the perfect Lamb who allowed Himself to be crucified for our sins. That’s the main thing He specifically came to do. Only a perfect, sinless Person could die for the sins of the world and the only Person who meets that criteria is God Himself. (I’m not going to get into the trinity here, see 1 John 5:7 in KJV as it’s left out of other versions) He died and rose again the third day. He spent some time with His followers before ascending to heaven and is alive today, preparing a place for those who’ve put their trust in Him and is going to come back. (John 14:1-3) I don’t consider Him to be just an ordinary man who’s existence began when He was physically born. (John 8:57, John 17:5)

I guess you could say I hold the biblical, traditional Christian, view of Jesus. Don’t know if I’m saying that right or not. Can’t think of any other way to put it.

15

P.S. I left out that because I believe these things, I accept and trust Him as my Savior and Lord. He has redeemed me from my sins, puchasing me with His own blood.

16

dead teacher of golden rule.

17

{ahem}

whose = who’s=who has

(I’m afeared that someone would point that out, so I’m busting myself)

18

Before I give my response, one quick comment. The dates for the Gospels in Cartooniverse’s second post are emphatically too late; the ones in Unu Mondo’s post are a very conservative (extremely early) stance. Taking the Jerome Biblical Commentary as a scholarly moderate source, I find the following: “Mark is commonly dated between AD 65 and 70” (NT Sec., p. 22); “Irenaeus alone of the early authors suggests a date [for Matthew]; he makes the authorship of Mt contemporaenous with the preaching of Peter and Paul in Rome – i.e. before AD 68. {snip} Internal evidence suggests (but does not demonstrate) a date later than the fall of Jersualem in AD 70. But the familiarity of the author with Palestininan Jewish customs does not allow us to remove the Gospel – in space or in time – too far from Palestinian Judaism before the Jewish rebellion.” (p. 65) “We conclude, therefore, to a date [for Luke] after AD 70; there is no reason to go beyond 80 or 85.” (p. 118) “Furthermore, [the Gospel of John’s] use by Ignatius of Antioch (probably), by Justin Martyr, and by the Gnostics in the first half of the 2nd cent., together with actual ms. evidence from the middle of the same century, make it very difficult for anyone today to suggest a date later than the end of the 1st cent. Many critics believe that this date should be anticipated by a decade or more.” (p. 416)

Jesus was first and foremost a man who had a clear conception of a behavior toward God and one’s fellow man characterized by love and by compassion towards the latter, and a state of mind charactrized by humility and forthright adherence to principle, with self-discipline over the promptings of the id. He believed himself to be in communion with God, whom he characterized as a loving Father, not a tyrannical, stern judge, and taught that others might enter into this communion.

The Church has from earliest days held him as Lord and Savior; the first “creed” was, simply, “Jesus is Lord.” The reported testimony of eyewitnesses then and of Christians who have experienced his presence mystically since has been that something happened following his execution that was universally understood as his having risen from the dead. He was not one to let a little thing like death keep him down!

John and others see him as having been the active forc of God in the world, not only in his life and since, but from the beginning, the word of God uttered in creation, in the prophets, and in his own life: “The word became flesh.”

Many modern Christians reject this conceptualization and see him as the ultimate in what it means to lead a Christian life, to place one’s trust in God and follow Him according to Jesus’s teachings. And certainly he was one who put his live on the line for what he believed.

I think that all of the above is true, though contradictory, but that none of it adequately expresses the totalyty of who he was and is, but only comprises fragmentary elements of a mystery that we are not suffiicently skilled or informed to unravel as yet.

19

Hmm…

Im an atheist so this may be brutal to the Christians out there, but this is not meant to belittle the Christian religion, which for the most part I have no problem with, but thats another post.

Jesus to me, was an ordinary man, thrust into extraordinary circumstances. Whether he truly had superpowers or was just a magician will never be known, but none the less, the Gospels almost certainly exaggerate his deeds. Jesus, as we know refer to him, probably had no idea that what he was doing would eventually lead to a world wide religion a few hundred years later. Nor, could he have predicted the widespread pain and suffering that his supposed compassion would envoke throughout the world.

Jesus may have taught compassion, love, and morality, but as all things in this world, humans have found a way to pervert them. He may have been a great man, or a nothing. Who can say? One thing is for sure, Jesus has had a profound impact on our society.

Simply put…

Jesus was a human being like the rest of us. He made mistakes, and the aura of myth and mysticism that revolves around him largely contributed to the Christian religion.

20

Jesus is my best friend, even when I take him for granted, fail to stick up for him in front of others, and sometimes ignore him. He saved my eternal life to giving up his wordly one for me.