Jesus dying on the cross

[Velma]

*Originally posted by ianzin *
**Yep, you believe it, and that’s your choice and the choice of millions. Millions more have either never heard of JC or think the Gospels are wholly unreliable. For more details, I heartily recommend The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy edited by C. Dennis McKinsey, which I thnk does a pretty god job of showing that the historical support for Jesus is a lot thinner than many believers fondly imagine.

As for the crucifixion, to say it’s unlikely anyone would survive one is to miss the point. We don’t have any way of knowing whether JC was crucified, and even if he was we cannot know how accurate any of the Gospel accounts were. The various ‘conspiracy’ theories about disciples and Joseph of Arimathea managing to take JC’s body before he actually died, and then take him away to be secretly revived, don’t cut much mustard with me, but I must necessarily assign them the same truth value as any other version I’ve heard. There’s no reason to suppose the ‘back from the dead’ version carries any more weight. Likewise, if you believe that JC actually died, and in fact never did appear again, that belief is just as worthy as any other in this thread.

Suppose something happened in 1930 that you knew nothing about. Suppose that now, in the year 2003, the very first written account is produced, with no other suporting facts, evidence or testimony; no documentation; no corroboration. Suppose also that this first ever written account tells of an event or events which fly in the face of reason, evidence and experience, such as a man levitating off the ground in full view of eyewitnesses. How much credence are you going to place in that account? And what does your (God-given?) capacity for thought and reason tell you is more likely - that the laws of physics were suspended for a moment, or that the account is either mistaken or non-literal? I go with reason. It’s not perfect, and neither am I, but then I’ve never felt inspired to kill anyone because their pet version of events 2000 years ago in Judea differ from my own. **

DrDeth already addressed some of this point, but I just wanted to ask you then, what kind of proof you require for anything that happened in early history. Even without biblical texts, there are written accounts of Jesus. I’m saying we have the same kind of proof that Jesus existed that we have for Pontius Pilate. As for his death, the account of the crucifixion makes sense logically and matches other accounts of Roman crucifixions. It makes more sense to accept he existed than to accept a vast conspiracy. I believe some things in the Bible on faith, but the existence of Jesus as a man is not one of them any more than my acceptance of any other historical figure from that time.

I think we are talking about different things to a point. I think by your levitating example you are referring to the resurrection, and I am not disputing that is an example of something taken on faith, or not. I am only specifically referring to the facts that 1) Jesus was a real historical figure, and 2) He was crucified and died as a result. I don’t see why those 2 facts cannot be proven or disproven just like any other historical event (given that any event from that long ago is not going to be clear on details, but I don’t think that means everything from that period in history has to be taken on faith.) Unless your definition of taking something on faith is different than mine.

For the record, I also want to say I also have never killed anyone for having a different version of events.

Thank you Meros for correcting me, I knew that, really!:smack:

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

ianzin, we actually have a couple of non-Biblical cites from josephus and Tacitus that a Jewish cult leader named Jesus was executed under Pilate. Those cites also say that his followers kept his movement going after his death. They say nothing about a resurrection (although there are some forged interpolations in one of the Josephus manuscripts). The fact that there was a movement at all, combined with a core collection of sayings also attest to the fact that Jesus at least existed. Historically, it is relatively certain that Jesus existed and was crucified. Virtually everthing else is up for discussion, but the mere fact that a man named Jesus led a religious movement in first century Palestine does not have to imply that all the supernatural stuff is also true.

[Shodan]

*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic *
**Josephus and Tacitus both say that Jesus was executed. They say nothing about a resurrection. **

Tacitus does not, but Josephus does, in his Antiquities of the Jews - book 18, chapter 3.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man…When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied this and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

The work is available online. It was written, or at least finished, around AD 93.

Regards,
Shodan