Well, it’s been 13 years since I started this thread, and I still don’t find any of the arguments put forth as to why Jesus’ suffering was more special than any other individual’s to be convincing. Perhaps that’s because I lack the ‘belief’ gene.
But I’ve certainly found the discussion to be interesting. Thanks to all who’ve contributed, back then and more recently.
What was it?
I do miss Polycarp.
Was it this thread?
No, it was one devoted to explaining the Trinity and how it wasn’t polytheism. However, as I have no problem with polytheism conceptually, I wasn’t convinced.
Well, look, as a Jew, I have no problem with polytheism conceptually. Like, if I meet a guy who worships Poseidon – the god of oceans and earthquakes, the brother to Hades and Zeus, the blood relative of wise Apollo and mighty Heracles – then I’m going to say “well, my holy book forbids the worship of other gods,” and he can reply “well, maybe your book is wrong,” and I can say, “well, maybe, but I don’t think so.”
And likewise if I meet a guy who worships Thor and talks a lot about Odin, or if I meet a guy who worships no gods at all: I can say “but my holy book,” and he can respond with a brisk “well, maybe your book is a pack of lies.”
I don’t have a conceptual problem with polytheism; it can simply be the conclusion of someone working from a different starting point. I only have a conceptual problem with someone who says “Oh, hey, I agree with everything in your holy book, which is also my holy book; also, I worship God Junior – who is the son of God Senior, and doesn’t know everything his dad knows, and has conversations with the big guy and wills different things than his father does.”
So if you could relay a link to that argument, I’d sure appreciate it.
Anglican theologian N.T. Wright has an interesting view on this, which basically states (if I can recall it correctly) that Jesus did not know of his divinity during his life, but instead knew of His calling. His calling tended to lead Him into instances where He was doing things that only God could do (forgiving sins, for instance). And therefore, while He was doing ministry, He knew he was doing some incredible things, things that only God has the power to do, but wasn’t aware of how His own story would end. So He thought the cross may have been the end for Him. Now Wright says it far more eloquently than I just did, but I think he is alluding to what you are alluding to there.
Also wanted to poke in just to say I’d like to see Polycarp’s post as well, because I do enjoy everything that he wrote. My view on the ‘is Christianity mere polytheism’ question is that the Trinity is a mystery to me and I’m fine with the begotten, not made, part. I guess I kind of see it like Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen.
That’s a nice explanation…if you pick and choose which “last words of Jesus” fits the tale you are trying to put forth. It seems to me that “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”(Luke 23:43) indicates a surety as to where he was going.
He may have only given up a weekend, but keep in mind that it was Easter Weekend he gave up, which is a pretty important weekend. He could have given up some lesser weekend, if he really wanted to minimize things.
Paradise still seems to mean death to me. I mean some folks seem assured they are going to heaven. That still doesn’t mean they are fine with dying.
Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ,
Who are you, what have you sacrificed?
I didn’t get logicked into being a Christian in the first place, so I have no brilliant answers about what Jesus accomplished by dying. And the sacrificial framework for understanding it makes little sense to me, I’ll be honest, because it seems to presuppose a Fall that is somehow All Our Fault that a sacrifice will somehow set right.
If the story of Adam and Eve in the garden were history rather than myth, there might be an awkward argument for that. But if we’re basically jumped-up plains apes, who bears the responsibility that we are what we are, and why would a sacrifice set it right?
Fortunately, I’m perfectly OK with not understanding how salvation really works from a theological perspective. Theology didn’t save me. Christ did.
I find some interesting atonement theology from Aulen’s Christus Victor theory and Girard’s Mimetic “Last Scapegoat” theory. Both seem to believe that Christ isn’t doing the sacrifice to pay back to God something, but rather to free humanity from what is holding us back (in a very very brief and overly simplistic summary). I tend to like those atonement theologies better (Christ, through His death and resurrection, cuts the chains of sin that holds us back from doing God’s good work in the world).
But in the end, yes… it’s all kind of like arguing how many angels can fit on a pin sometimes.
But that is exactly what ‘Faith’ is -
[QUOTE=Hebrews 11:1 NIV]
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
[/QUOTE]
No-that’s what “picking the verse that backs your beliefs” is. In one story he is full of doubt-just like a human! In another story he knows where he is going and he knows where is companion is going-because he is God! Because there is no reconciling the two narratives theologians like the one previously mention dwell on one and ignore the other.
Actually Wright does discuss the paradise quote, but usually in the context of discussing ‘the end’ - in that paradise isn’t when the new heavens & the new earth are created (and come together). The life after the life after death, so to speak. And ‘paradise’ is not resurrection.
Well, most of the other long weekends involve bbq’s and some sort of fireworks. Can you blame him for not wanting to miss out on those?
“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”(Luke 23:43) . Jehovah’s Witnessed New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures moves the comma, so the quote reads “Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”
Not to necessarily turn this into a discussion N.T. Wright’s works, but in “Jesus’ Self-Understanding”, he writes:
And I think that’s what BigT was alluding to. Now you can disagree with that all you want, but I was trying to see if that is what BigT’s argument was. To add, I think Wright’s view is more on the mark for me than not… but I still vacillate between positions on Jesus’s self-awareness of His divinity.
For one resurrection was a matter of faith, as Jesus had to suffer everything that man (humans) had to, ‘so no one can boast’ (that they did anything beyond Jesus). So it was on faith alone that Jesus died in hope of resurrection, even feeling forsaken by the Father on the cross.
It is that very path God asks us to travel, on faith, not on assurances. And Jesus brief time in death speaks to the temporary nature of it for those who believe. Paul writes about it later.
Since it is written that no-one can claim anything over Jesus, it is a good thing that it was only 3 days (or a weekend).