If Jesus were God, He knew he’d rise up from the dead.
I’ve always felt this was the same as someone with a winning $500 million lottery ticket in their pocket giving a panhandler a fifty dollar bill. Big sacrifice there.
There’s no doubt that being crucified would be extraordinarily painful and horrible. He was (assuming a real person, which I do) tortured to death. I don’t think it’s useful to underplay the amount of sacrifice any more than it is to overplay it.
If you told me, for instance, that I could have $500 million if I volunteered to be tortured to death, I’d say no. So some sacrifices are more sacrificial than others.
What about a 3-day “death” followed by a perfect eternal life?
And some aren’t really a sacrifice at all if you look at the big picture. He didn’t really do a stint as one of us-he was just LARPing.
What about it? If you’re asking me if I would choose to be tortured to death to gain perfect eternal life I’d say no. But that’s because it’s a meaningless question for me. I’m a materialist.
Nothing about being tortured is like giving up a fifty. That’s all I’m saying. Let’s not downplay a person being tortured in order to make snarky comments about a religion.
In this case - this is not correct - this is simply showing what the bibilical definition is and how it fits the prior explanation about how he could be ‘only human’ and ‘still fully sure’ about what was happening next. It is not unreasonable that this definition was just as much in play (or a factor in his thoughts) during his life.
If you have a cite that says “faith did not exist until AFTER his death” - feel free to provide it.
It’s also not unreasonable to use a later ‘definition’ provided by the scriptures to back up an earlier event in the same book when reffering to ‘why’ a person may or may not have said it - it all fits in context.
And let’s not exaggerate what he went through to make it sound like untold millions haven’t had it worse off with much, much less to show for it, either. If he wants to actually suffer like the rest of us, he can come back without the angels, wise men, gold, frankincense, myrrh, followers and worshipers. He can come back in a broken or diseased body. He can come back as a repressed female with no rights and a forced circumcision. He can die alone and his mind Alzheimered into mush.
And he can finish up by spending more than a long weekend in the dirt.
Sure. But you have that part of it covered, don’t you?
A man who likely existed was tortured to death. One side makes too much of it. It wasn’t the biggest thing anyone ever did. It wasn’t the worst thing anyone ever experienced. And it has certainly happened to guilty and innocent alike.
But I won’t take part in making too little of it. It’s absolutely horrific. I wouldn’t want it to happen to me. Nothing in my life has approached that for pain and horror.
Oh, it would be a horrible thing to be human/mortal with a short lifespan and have that happen to you.
But that’s not what we are talking about in this situation, if it happens to an eternal god to whom a thousand years is like a day and who has lived/will live forever.
And therein lies the irony. Most of the time, crucifixion would last days. The condemned would linger in unimaginable agony as the ravens plucked his eyes out.
Jesus, on the other hand, died within just a few hours on the cross. So he didn’t even come close to suffering the full potential pain of his execution. That’s really the part that makes me go, “Hmmm…”
If he wants to know what it’s like to suffer, he could have come back as my cousin Cathy, who lived with polio for forty years-she grew up in pain, lived through more pain, and died in even more pain. Jesus whined after one bad night(great faith, there), but Cathy had nothing but kind words right up to the end.
It’s clear many places in the Gospels that while Jesus knew things he shouldn’t have known (“It is true you have no husband; you have had five husbands and the man living with you is not your husband”), he also does not know things that an omniscient God would know (“Who touched my cloak?”). So at best we can say, at risk of asserting an oxymoron, that Jesus possessed limited omniscience.
What this means in terms of the purpose or efficacy of his sacrifice on the cross is debatable. As a believer myself, I’ve always found the substitutionary atonement theory unsatisfying for a lot of the reasons given in this thread – what logic does it make, and more importantly, what kind of loving God does that? So I don’t know how the incarnation, death and resurrection (which I believe are all critical elements) of the person of Jesus accomplished God’s design of reconciliation between himself and the world - I just know it did, and the mechanics continue to elude me.
What is clear is that many different Gospels written by many different people at many different times will result in many different stories about who Jesus was, what Jesus knew and what Jesus could do.
I am not even sure where to begin.
I will state up front where I am coming from and that this is entirely my belief and perspective.
I am Southern Baptist. I have been SB all my life. My father has been a SB minister since I was 7, but I have been in the SB church since 9 months before I was born.
I do believe that Bible is the inspired word of God. And I do believe it happened as stated.
I feel that, at least from my perspective, this has gotten off the rails and to a degree, I believe several are looking at it from an incorrect perspective.
So I will attempt to explain my view.
At some point, God created the angels. They communed with Him and just were. The angels are not all knowing, they have more “power” than humans, but are limited as they are created beings. All was good for some time, and then at one point, the angel known as Lucifer decided he wanted to be in control and gathered a like minded set of angels (in the bible it indicates that 1/3 rebelled) and they rebelled against God. For this they were thrown out of Heaven.
At some later point, God decided to create mankind. Why did God create man? I don’t know, He likes to make stuff. Why do we have children, why do we make music, art, movies, etc.?
God created all the planets and solar systems and all that exists. God also created a man and woman. He wanted to spend time with them. He walked in the garden with them. They knew the rules of what they could eat and what they could not eat.
Some get caught up in the fact that He made the tree of knowledge of good and evil and put it in the garden as a temptation. But without that, how is there any free will? If He made a perfect land, with a perfect people, and no ability to not follow Him, then there is no free will. He knew from the start what was going to happen. He resides in all times and knows all things. So why created flawed man if he knew man was going to disobey? Why do we create children that we know have the potential to do things that are wrong?
They walked with Him in the garden, they knew the rules, assuming no other beast could talk, and they knew that the serpent was directing them to do something that God Himself said not to do, did they even talk to God about it? Or did they in their own pride, desire to be knowledgeable like God and decide to ignore the rule and do what they wanted?
Once they had disobeyed God, that caused a fallen world, but one where people could choose to love God. Someone mentioned why would God create beings to worship and praise Him? He created beings to love Him and that He could love. I love the feelings of love I have with my wife, but honestly, there is nothing like the love of my children. I don’t want them to love me because they have to, because I demand it, or because I ask them, or even because I give them things. I want them to love me because they want to love me. Because they have a relationship with me. Because they care about me and I care about them.
But just like with my kids, it is not enough just to tell them the rules, it is necessary to give them consequences to breaking the rules. If they do not do what they are told, they have consequences. Not just saying “I am sorry”, but something to realize the significance of breaking the rule. That is what God then required of man after the fall.
The reason He required a blood sacrifice was to show the importance. If they could give up some plants, not much sacrifice, not much of an expression of the gravity of what was done. In fact, a plant that is cut down, can usually be replanted from the seeds and it would grow again (new plants). But an animal that was killed is gone. No more animal can come from the death of an animal. That would have been understood by them. Also, God knew what the “ultimate” plan was in sending His son to die as the final blood sacrifice. So the earlier requirement was to give them a picture and help them to understand the later significance.
Fast forward through all the years of God’s people doing their thing and living their lives and all that is the OT.
Now in all that time, God sent prophets to tell the people what He wanted them to know and do. For a while they would obey and then over time they would get off track and time would pass until something got them back on the path.
Again, God knew the plan, God knew the timing. But mankind had to “go through” all these things before they would be ready.
At the appropriate time Christ came to Earth as a baby. To experience all that is this Earthly experience. Did He experience everything? Not sure, it never indicates if He got sick or hurt or had any of those type problems. But it does indicate that He had close friends and that when Lazarus died, He hurt and it saddened Him. He had empathy, He had love, He cared about those around Him.
Was His suffering greater than others? No. Did it need to be? No. He came to this Earth to be the ultimate connection to God. The prophets were not getting it done long term. The people kept going back to the old habits and not following God. Jesus came to be not only the ultimate sacrifice, but to tell the world that God was real, that God cared, to move from the law into grace.
Prior to Jesus, you were not able to sacrifice for your sins, you had to go to the priest to atone. Once Jesus came and died and the Holy Spirit came, then we could go to God directly. We could have that personal relationship with Him.
Let’s say one of my kids got so mad at me that they left and broke off all contact and wanted nothing to do with me. That would hurt me greatly. I would weep, I would search, I would try to figure out a way to repair that relationship. But I could not and would not force them.
Were God to communicate in a booming voice telling us what He desired, and when we screwed up, that would be akin to forcing us to do what He wanted. Otherwise, we would fear the punishment that might be coming.
So He sent His son to be a human walking around to start the ministry that would become the church and we of the church are to spread the word so that all may know.
Even if one of my children decided to live on the street instead of at home. If if they let their pride get in the way that they could not come back to me. I would still love them. I would want to restore the relationship, but I could not force them to come home. But if she decided to come home, then I would rejoice in that.
God does not want us to not be with Him, but He will not force anyone to spend time with him.
So Jesus’ death was not to be horrible to pay the price. His death was what had to happen. Let’s say He lived and then what, just disappeared? Everyone would have said, “well guess He skipped town”. Maybe ascend into the clouds (well He did that after His 40 days on Earth after His resurrection. His death was to be the ultimate sacrifice, but He could not stay dead, He rose to show His power over death, over the grave, over all that is.
He had already brought the dead back to life, from someone that had just died, from a distance, from Lazarus who had been in the grave for 4 days. But bringing Himself back from the dead was to show He was not some little g god, but the Son of the one true and living God.
I recall the Biblical story about Samson finding the carcass of the lion he has killed, now able to host a thriving colony of bees. I’m not sure the difference you claim between plants from dead plants and animals from dead animals is a substantial one. Beyond the opportunities afforded to some animals that can live off carcasses, the concept of plant seeds still being viable even when the plant is cut seems similar enough to eggs still being viable after the parent animals are killed.
Sure, but if you toss out what the Gospels say about Jesus, then we can’t say he was born, or that he was crucified, or that he was raised again. The argument about what the point of his sacrifice was becomes pretty moot.
I’m more interested in: what was the point of his death and resurrection, in the context of the Gospels (and other NT scriptures).
That’s the problem: You are looking at many different stories written by many different authors at many different times, and trying to come up with the point when there is no evidence that all/any of these authors(none of whom with first hand experience)would agree with each other in the first place as to what that point was. It is difficult enough to get what the point is from any individual gospel.
With the exception of a few of the epistles that are believed to have been written in the second century, the “many different times” were all within a few decades of each other. Let’s not exaggerate with our spin.
Sure, the gospels have different emphases, but I think it’s a losing argument to suggest that their areas of disagreement aren’t far outweighed by their areas of concurrence.
No, actually, it’s not particularly challenging.
Nothing is “particularly challenging” when you operate on faith.
That’s the problem.