Jesus' half-siblings

[Chronos]

Of course a marriage is valid as soon as it’s performed, but when is the marriage performed? In the eyes of modern, secular law, it’s performed when the witnesses sign the marriage certificate. But we’re not talking about modern, secular law.

I don’t know about Year 0 Jewish marriage law, but in the Catholic church, consummation is one step of marriage, and the marriage is not completely performed until consummated.

[Biffster]

@Chronos

Of course a marriage is valid as soon as it’s performed, but when is the marriage performed? In the eyes of modern, secular law, it’s performed when the witnesses sign the marriage certificate. But we’re not talking about modern, secular law.

I don’t know about Year 0 Jewish marriage law, but in the Catholic church, consummation is one step of marriage, and the marriage is not completely performed until consummated.

Good thing Mary and Joseph weren’t Catholics then.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@John_W.Kennedy

Nope. When you’re talking about Jews, “firstborn” doesn’t imply a thing. There’s a whole special religious ritual in Judaism for a firstborn son (the “opener of the womb”), and you don’t wait for another child to perform it.

I have to think, for an account that was written so much much later, and which was then reinterpreted and retranslated again and again over the centuries, that the word has greater significance than that. “Firstborn” implies that there was a second- and maybe even a third- or more-borns after that.

[EscAlaMike]

@Biffster

Good thing Mary and Joseph weren’t Catholics then.

:rolleyes:

[puzzlegal]

@Flyer

…It’s true that the copies we currently have are in Greek. But Matthew was a Jew, writing to other Jews about a Jewish Messiah. (That’s the theme of the whole book – “Here is the Messiah; examine His credentials.”) It is very likely indeed that he wrote in either Hebrew or Aramaic.

He would have written in Aramaic or Greek. Hebrew wasn’t commonly spoken then, it was an ancient ritual language. The related language, Aramaic, was the cradle-tongue of most of the Hebrews, but Greek was the language of commerce, and widely spoken.
Hebrew and Aramaic are different languages. There is one common prayer in the Jewish liturgy in Aramaic, and it sounds really different from all the other ones that are in Hebrew. I knew it sounded different as a kid, before I learned that it was a different language.

@Hector_St_Clare

It’s a dogma also shared by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and by some of the more conservative Anglicans. And it’s in the Fourth or Fifth Ecumenical Council, which is pretty “ancient”. z

The Hebrew version of the OT (I think) says “young woman”, but the Greek OT says “maiden”, and I think the Greek version is the one that the authors of the NT considered to be authoritative.

The Hebrew word in Isaiah is best translated into English as “young woman”. And that’s how it is translated in the Jewish Publication Society’s translation, which is based on the Hebrew (without reference to the Greek and Latin texts) and done by a team of biblical scholars.

(unfortunately, the scholarly, 1985 translation, is not completely freely available. But apparently you can now get access for free.
JPS Bible Translation Enters Digital Era with Sefaria | The Jewish Publication Society)

But yes, the Septuagint (the accepted contemporary Greek translation of the Bible) used the word “virgin” or “maiden”, and that’s no-doubt the source of confusion, as Greek was commonly spoken at the time, and Hebrew wasn’t. So most Hebrews at the time of Jesus were more familiar with the Septuagint than with the original. And I assume that’s why the people who wrote the gospels cared whether Mary was a virgin.

@Biffster

A marriage is not valid if it’s not consummated. Think about it.

@ftg

I don’t see how modern ideas of marriage and consummation applies.

Checking a number of sources gives summaries much like this one. (Information, unfortunately, mostly dating to the post-temple period.) Intercourse used to be one of 3 ways a marriage was finalized. The other ways of either a gift or a contract worked just as well.

So there was no need for Joseph and Mary to have sex to make things official. AFAWK.

OTOH, there would be social pressure for consummation to occur. Joseph would have been looked down on if he didn’t do his tribal duty to procreate (even Jesus would not have been enough, regardless of fatherhood matters).

As far as I know, intercourse still IS one of the three legitimate ways for Jews to be married, the others being a bride price (such as the wedding ring) or a contract. We like to include all three, but any one is (still, among modern Jews) considered valid.

So I see no reason to doubt that Joseph was Mary’s husband. Of course, it’s a little awkward that he wasn’t Jesus’s FATHER, but hey…

[paulmarkj]

@Skammer

Aside from being a non-canonical source, at best this only proves that Jesus had step-siblings, i.e. siblings through marriage, if you accept the premise that Joseph was not Jesus’ biological father.

Usually when people refer to Jesus’ half-siblings they are talking about younger children of Mary and Joseph.

Canonical vs canonical: who decided which is which. Not god and not Jesus - it was people.

Once again, the pretence that gospels are godly but actually man-made.

[dropzone]

@carnivorousplant

It was mentioned in religion class at Catholic High that the disciples wrote in Greek, and it was pretty crummy Greek with long run on sentences.

Long run on sentences? I’m no longer a lousy writer, but instead I walk the same path as the Evangelists!