Jesus vs Roman Empire taxes.

Ah, August! The month named to honor Emperor Augustus…

For a long time I had the feeling that there was something else to Jesus and the renderings to Caesar, doing research I found that there is lots of stuff that appears on the web that seems to be tainted by agendas. However, I do know a place were all this can be sorted out: where else but the Straight Dope? :slight_smile:

My suggestion (and someone else must have come with it, so I want to know about them and take a look at their work) is essentially that Jesus threw a monkey wrench to the Roman taxation system, and this was one of the reasons the Romans decided to get him, not much evidence, I grant it, but years of reading about the history around the gospels tells me that many things that ended up as important in the gospels, like being the one, overshadowed some seemingly mundane, but not so pointless actions.

So how, in essence, did the Romans do taxation?
http://school.discovery.com/lessonplans/activities/payup/
-Working Romans paid tax collectors a portion of their earnings.
-The tax collectors paid a portion of what they collected to the republic’s senators.
-The senators provided (somewhat) for the poor, while keeping most of the tax money for themselves.
(The more things change…)

So, how to counteract that? Especially since open rebellion will destroy you? Find a way to limit the earnings of their tax base, therefore: less taxes to Rome: I think I see that in Acts:

*Acts 4:32: “All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need”. *

I have the suspicion that well to do Christians had (ahem), more needs than others, and they in reality did not suffer as monks did later, (Aside: I do have a beef on how many, by their actions today, show that this was not sanctioned by Jesus, although he never mentions that, the acts of the apostles imply that that is indeed WWJD)

I do think the constant encounters with the tax collectors had a background of a nasty growing awareness, by the local tax collectors, that some rich citizens of Palestine were beginning to show up empty handed, and publicans were demanding some explanations, I think many suppers were organized to discuss those matters:

Mark 2:16: “When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the “sinners” and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?””

Have you noticed how many big talks with tax collectors were stopped by miracles or by big shows of faith?

I can see that famous line of: “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s.”
In a different light: Yes, render to Caesar, but you can render less if you join us…

Still, it was an example that needed to be eliminated; later, on the road of taking Rome, Christianity “forgot” that part of the history, easy to do when it is you who depend on the tribute of others now.
I think the movement had in it, a growing threat to the roman taxation system, and Jesus or the apostles (similarly like Ghandy and the Salt Vs the British Empire in the 20th century) found a way to hit the Roman Empire were it hurt, and all that, without taking arms. The question (and part of the debate) is: if it was pure happenstance or a brilliant move.

(Or, there is nothing to see here, don’t pass go, don’t collect 200 shekels… (What do you mean there were no silver denarius in Palestine when Jesus was there!?!?) http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/au2001/bible.html )

And I might as well find about this since it could be relevant: Was Judas actually a former tax collector?

Interesting theory. To answer the last question first, there is nothing in the NT that suggests that Judas was a tax collector but it does say that Matthew was (at least the Gospel bearing his name makes that claim).

I don’t think that Jesus’ injunction to give everything to the poor and live without property had any subversive, anti-Roman motive. He was just a utopian who was trying to bring about a “Kingdom of Heaven” on Earth.

Judea was a pretty obscure province as far as the Roman empire was concerned, and the movement initiated by Jesus was not even on the radar screen as far as doing any economic damage to Rome. The Romans in Jerusalem would have been far more concerned about a possible uprising or any talk of popular support for a would be “King of the Jews” than they would for the infintesimal loss of revenue that would be incurred by a few rich followers giving away their money.

Anyway, Rome collected much of its tribute in agricultural produce and that would be easy to collect whether anybody admitted to owning a given farm or not.

I do think it’s a clever hypothesis, though.

Matthew 22
20and he asked them, “Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?”
21"Caesar’s," they replied.
Then he said to them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
22When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

This is one of the most amazing teachings of Jesus.

Doh! You are right, some books point that Judas was the one who handled the finances of the group! That confused me; I suspect for that reason, that he was very involved in those dinners with the publicans.

It is very possible it was just happenstance that that affected the local tax men too.

Not infinitesimal for the local publicans! (Think of their kids! Jesus did :wink: )

But what if you don’t have a farm now?
I also realized that Diogenes, in that case the publicans had the added trouble to find even that produce, and they were the ones that needed to give something to Rome later, actions like this one:
Acts 4:36: “Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), 37sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.” made their jobs harder.

:cool:

monty2_2001:
It is more amazing to me that is very likely that Jesus did not said that! As the researcher on the denarius’s link shows: it is not likely those roman coins were there, this reflects once again the scholars consensus that the books of the NT were written decades after Jesus left.

So does this make Jesus a liberal or a conservative?

:wink:

Really? I have a suspicion that this is wrong. Not only that, but to sell everything, it is generally understood that they sold extra things, and gave it to those who needed, otherwise they’d all live on the streets. Did they have capital gains tax? Apart from that, I fail to see the tax benifit of this. Now to say someone is taxed less because they give money to the poor, still doesn’t fly. Then you’re assuming there is a sliding tax scale, where those who got paid less paid only a chicken as tax, but those who made more had to pay more. It doesn’t happen in our tax system, why would it happen there? Not only that, but someone who earns 1000 sheep a month, gives 500 to rome, or gives 500 to a poor person. Then they have to still give 250 to rome, while the other has to as well, assuming a 50% sheep tax. Just because someone is needy, doesn’t mean that they pay no tax.

Generally understood by whom?

Jesus said “give everything you own to the poor” to those who wanted to follow him. They did live “on the streets” pretty much, or off the largesse of others. Jesus told the apostles to own literally nothing but the clothes on their backs and to stay at the homes of those who would let them. Acts says that early Christian communities lived without any private ownership of property, so basically, Jesus was a communist in the true sense of the word. And don’t forget he said that rich people can’t go to Heaven. The camel and the needle and all of that…

I’ve always liked that one. If you give everything you have to the poor, then they’re not the poor anymore - you are. Who should do what then?

Anyone who’s tried to understand it. Unless of course you think all the people took everything they had, sold it and gave their money away. Well they could have, and they sure would have stuck out being the naked people who had nothing.

Jesus said to give everything I have to the poor? I don’t really recall that anywhere. Unless you are talking about the rich young ruler, but that’s a bit of a strech. So this is not totally correct, and nowhere does it say rich people can’t get to heaven.

They were allowed to keep the clothes on their back. Being homeless was nothing remarkable then. they would not have “stood out.”

Matthew 19:24
“Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Sounds pretty impossible to me.

In elementary school, I was taught that ‘the eye of the needle’ referred to a small door set in a large city gate. At night, when the gate was closed, people could still enter through the small door but a heavily-laden camel would have trouble – unless all of the cargo was taken off first.

I have absolutely no idea if this is true, but if so then the story changes from obvious hyperbole into a rather clever analogy: what the rich man wants is not impossible, but he will first need to get rid of everything he has. Of course, it is very possible that this explanation was made up long after the fact by some clever apologist, but I’ve always liked it.

First one…please cite where it was said to sell everything, except the cloths on their backs. Now don’t go quoting what was told to the disciples before their journey to the towns, I’m talking about as a lifestyle.

Second one is an idiom. But it’s hard, granted, not impossible. It’s hard to serve God and money, and where your treasure is, there your heart is, true. But it’s possible to have money and not let it have you.

The “Needle Gate” story is bunk.

I was referring to a combination of his instructions to the apostles, his instructions to the rich man, the “eye of the needle” quote and the fact that Acts says that the first Christian communities lived without private ownership of property. Taken collectively it does not amount to much of an endorsement of capitalism or wealth.

Aw, too bad. Thanks.

The Eye of the Needle story is also told in Mark, and it ends with this conversation between Peter and Jesus:

Then, in Luke 6

There’s also the parable of the rich man, from Luke 12:

Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”
And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’ "Then he said, 'This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.” ’ "But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ “This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God.”

Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
"Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.
"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
[/quote]

While you are technically correct Svt4Him, Jesus says that it is “hard” (not impossible), in the very next verse he talks about the camel through the eye of the needle thing.

This tells me that not only is it hard, it is very, very hard.

Yes, but right after the “eye of the needle”, Jesus says, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.” So it’s impossible for a man to put a camel through the eye of a needle, but for God, it’s simplicity itself.

So how does that relate to a rich man getting to heaven?