JET, you disgusting nonhuman offal.

The BBQ Pit
41

Fenris:

As do I. I think it’s distasteful and wrong, too. True homophobia, though? I wouldn’t say so.

At any right, I see no point in continuing to be JET’s apologist, as much of this he has brought on his own head.

It remains to be seen how he reacts to all this. I hope he gives it considerable thought, and does something other than the standard crawl-into-a-defensive-shell-and-attack-back that usually characterizes these types of threads.

I think he’s smart, and I hope hee’ll see the validity of the complaints against him.

I’d love to see him break out of the role he’s in.

42

Look at the “Hey you fucking assholes” thread, where he starts by calling anyone who has knowledge he wants a “fucking asshole”, and ends with the charming “cock-smoking Windows-master faggots”. That’s about as discourteous as you can get.

In addition, I’m not convinced that he’s actually got the linked disorder. Per that link, (assuming that JET is 18)
he needs to demonstrate at least three of the following (and we can only judge by his board behavior) behaviors. And if he’s not 18, he can’t be diagnosed with the disorder.

[li]A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest.[/li]Nope, haven’t seen it here. No hacking, no admissions of credit card fraud, nothing on-line that could get him in legal trouble. And again, if we don’t see it we can’t diagnose it.

No

[li]B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases.[/li]This is sufficently vague that it describes every internet troll, ever. But we’ll give it to him, on the assumption that his…“outrageous” statements aren’t heartfelt.

Yes

[li]C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive.[/li]Exactly the opposite. Each of his “outrageous” posts seems carefully planned to outrage the maximum number of people.

No

[li]D. Repeated assaults on others.[/li]Saying shocking things isn’t an assault. Devoting a sufficently vicious Pit thread to someone might arguably be, but JET doesn’t do that.

No

[li]E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety.[/li]I don’t know how this could be demonstrated on-line, but either way, I haven’t seen it.

N/A (or No)

[li]F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations.[/li]Again, not applicable on-line.

N/A (or No)

[li]G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others.[/li]Nope. His response has been all along “Hey, that’s how I feel, deal with it.” which is hardly a rationalization. He doesn’t rationalize away people’s discomfort at his “outrageous” statements, he tells them it’s their problem and enjoys their discomfort.

No

So of the 7 characteristics that a person with “Antisocial Personality Disorder” (aka Sociopaths), JET demonstrates maybe one of them on-line. I don’t think this diagnosis can be made with the available evidence.

On the other hand, the definition of a Troll is either
[li] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself[/li]
Pretty much describes the bulk of JET’s posting behavior that I’ve encountered

or (from the same source)
[li]2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, “Oh, ignore him, he’s just a troll.”[/li]
Again, pretty much describes JET’s behavior that I’ve seen.

To me, he fits either definition of “troll” far better than he fits the diagnosis of “Antisocial Personality Disorder” (Sociopath)

Fenris

43

So when’s he going to appear to defend his actions? He has to have seen this by now.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt earlier. At this point I’m beginning to think that he really is a troll.

JET, methinks you owe us an explanation. Anytime you’re ready.

44

Scylla,

I’ve read his position and I don’t agree with it.
If he thinks we’re sheep for feeling empathy for those that died, regardless of our relationship to those people, then so be it. I disagree.
No one here said “You know, I really wasn’t sure how to feel about kids being killed. But I talked to my next door neighbor and he feels upset about it, so I guess it’s ok now if I feel upset about it too.”
That the majority of people happen to feel a certain way about a subject does not automatically mean that one person led the rest of us into that way of thinking. What it means is that being within the majority classifies you as normal.

This isn’t to say that abnormal = bad, and I’m not asking that JET feel sorry for the kids. But he does understand that he is going against what one would consider a normal human reaction. He’s doing this either 1) To get a rise out of people. 2) Because he hates normality so much he’s willing to go against…well, almost instinct…to prove his point. 3) both.

And if he’s doing it to get a rise out of people, that’s more than just trollish behavior, it doesn’t actually prove anything!.
I can masturbate right in a stranger’s face and watch as that person becomes horrified at what I’m doing and calls the cops, beats the shit out of me, or runs away screaming. If I did this 1000 times, it would not prove that we’re all sheep. It proves that we all independently respond to the same situation in the same ways.

JET does have empathy. He’s shown it towards the school shooters. Well I have empathy towards them as well. But what I don’t get is if JET is capable of that emotion, why can’t he at least comprehend that others could have that emotion towards the victims?

You don’t have to defend him anymore. I’m glad you’re not. I’m asking him to defend himself.

45

Hey Scylla… this may cause you to rethink the whole thing, but I ** totally agree with you ** , and I’m very glad you took it upon yourself to say it. Well done.

By the way, people… I really doubt any of you are feeling much ** empathy ** for, with, or about anything being talked about. ** Sympathy **, you apparantly have bucketloads. But unless you have had your kids killed, killed kids yourself, were standing nearby when someone else killed some kids, or had other experiences which closely mirror the experiences being discussed, I really don’t think you are capable of feeling empathy in this situation. (Empathy means you identify with the feelings and can share them, not that you feel compassionate towards those who have had such feelings or experiences.)

stoid

46

And yet again, Stoid spouts about which she knows not. Yes, I have lost people, even family, and friends close to me before their time. So, empathy it is.

47

Just because someone has a disorder does not excuse anything. I have ADHD and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Does this give me a license to start running up and down the aisles at work because I can’t stay still?

48

Saw him in the first thread here. Stopped posting after the first couple of responses, I figured either:

  1. He’s doing this to get negative attention (see how outrageous I can be) for whatever reason.

  2. He’s seriously in need of intensive and immediate psychiatric help.

If it’s #1, to respond to him is feeding his desires, allowing him to bask in the glory of being a puppetmaster, see how superior I am to all those others type of thing. Pit threads about him achieve the same goal. I am reminded of my sister in law, who, when she saw that my son had a pierced eyebrow, when he said “Did you notice it?” responded “I know that you’re doing that for attention, so I’m not going to give it to you” then proceeded for the next half hour to tell her daughters (in front of him) how much ‘they’ disapproved of such things and so on… :rolleyes:

If it’s #2, to respond to him is not, IMHO, a wise idea. If he’s currently in therapy, for all we know we may be interferring with that process - even if any of us is a professional in the field, we don’t have sufficient info about him in order to assist him. If he’s not currently in therapy, by providing some sort of emotional bandaid to him, you can actually be preventing him from hurting enough in real life to get to a therapist.

I posted in his first thread very briefly. What I’ve seen since has not changed my mind. I’m only posting here 'cause a couple of people I admire greatly are here.

49

“Losing people before their time” ain’t exactly having your 8 year old knifed to death in class. :rolleyes:

And you really should try having a disagreement sometime without making it personal. Just for kicks.
stoid

50

I have no idea why you feel qualified to make pronouncements about the emotional experiences or the empathic limitations of everyone on this board. I cannot imagine any justification for doing so.

As to JET, I can (and do) empathize with his position. That does not mean that I must excuse his behavior. The SDMB community has only one cardinal rule, don’t be a jerk. He has, IMO, broken that rule. According to scylla and spider woman, he has done so with deliberation and intent, but his decisions are affected by an anti-social personality disorder. That may be true. I have neither the training nor the access to make such a diagnosis. I have only JET’s claim (indirectly through scylla) that he suffers from the disorder. scylla sees reason to trust his veracity (in that claim, at least).

Here’s what I know:
JET has expressed glee at the murder oh children.
JET has stated that he feeds off of human suffering and sees no reason to mitigate that part of his personality.

If he is lying in those statements, then I see little reason to believe he was honest in his statements to scylla.

If he is honest in those statements, then I am quite comfortable ignoring anything else he might choose to say. My time on the SDMB is limited. I choose not to waste it interacting with unrepentant sociopaths. I have not argued that he should be banned, though I would find no reason to protest such an action. I simply have much more worthwhile people to talk to on this board.

[after crying baby time + preview
Yeah. What wring said. But I went to the trouble of typing this thing, so I’m hitting “submit” anyway.

51

It wasn’t a pronouncement about the emotional experiences of anyone, I specifically noted that persons who have been through anything similar could empathize. it was an admonishment about the misuse of a word. I was picking a vocabulary nit. (remember what the board is about)

Again, ** empathy ** means one identifies with the feelings of another, feeling the same feelings that they are feeling. I think it is silly, if not actually arrogant, for most, if not all of the posters in this thread to claim that they empathize with the feelings of the children, the children’s parents, or anyone else who was directly affected by this dreadful act. And in fact, I don’t believe that is really what anyone meant to be claiming. I believe most people think that sympathy and empathy are interchangable, or that empathy means “deluxe” sympathy. I find it hard to believe that anyone here actually meant to be saying “I am feeling what they are feeling”. I think they meant to be saying “I feel very compassionate towards them for the terrible things they must be feeling”. If anyone here actually meant to be telling us that they were feeling wrenching grief, indescribable horror, consuming anger, life-shattering pain of loss…well, then, fine. But I really don’t think that’s the case, do you?
Folks have to stop being so damned touchy around here, really. Cripes.

stoid
Grammar Ranger

52

Well, well, well. Let’s see how long it takes before someone calls me narcissistic for replying to this thread.

I really don’t have anything to say, except Scylla is right…I really am an interesting person if you take the time to get to know me. :slight_smile: And yes, I push buttons. I do it well and I enjoy it. It’s one of the few things I can really take pride in.

Funny how the “homophobic comments” made its way over here. All I got to say to that is, if “cocksucker” ever becomes a word as anti-PC as “nigger”, I really WILL go postal…

53

Well, as long as we are picking vocabulary nits. Empathy can mean “feeling the identical emotion”, usually this meaning is found in works of science fiction. In standard usage, the definition is less extreme
em·pa·thy
n. Identification with and understanding of another’s situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity.
Having changed schools several times as a child, I feel empathy for the transfer students.

Notice that this usage does not require me to feel the exact emotions that the transfer students feel. It requires me to be able to recognize the elements of the situation which create those emotions and to identify within my own experience emotional responses which grant understanding of how the transfer students feel.

BTW, the distinction between sympathy and empathy is not the difference between “feeling what they feel” and “feeling compassionate toward them”. Both words can mean “feeling what they feel”. Again, this usage is generally seen in a mystical/fantastic context.
sym·pa·thy
n. a.The act or power of sharing the feelings of another.
b.A feeling or an expression of pity or sorrow for the distress of another; compassion or commiseration.

In more mundane contexts, the two words are not interchangeable, but the distinction has to do with understanding an emotional state versus reacting to another’s emotion with a specific emotive subset.

I have no problems accepting that most posters can respond to the mass murder of children with both sympathy and empathy.

54

It seems that I will have no reason to revise my assessment of JET.

55

JET,

I don’t consider you narcissistic. I don’t even consider you homophobic. But I do consider you deranged, which I’m sure pleases you to no end.

I read your original thread a few months ago. And I disagreed with it. And I wrote you a very civil post on the preceding page telling you why I disagreed with it.

Many people don’t have the time or inclination to wade through those…what? 5 pages? on school shooters to try to weed out your personal philosophy. They also disagree with you. Many wrote civil comments as well.

You’ve ignored us all. If that’s the best defense you can muster, I have no reason to continue hoping for any type of communication. So, alas, I’ll just have to settle with agreeing with some of the meatier words people have used against you in the past.

-Ender the sheep
baaaaaaaaaa baaaaaaaaaaaa

56

Well he showed up. Hopefully he won’t make me look bad for having defended him.

Jet:

Please consider this:

You claim empathy for school shooters. You feel they are responding to the hateful pressures of society, or being bullied and teased.

Please realize that deliberately pushing people’s buttons is exactly the same kind of behavior.

In either case, it’s not nice to fuck with people.

While I expect you to make no apology for your arguments, it might be nice to consider making amends in the form of an apology for having gone out of your way to deliberately provoke people. Do that, along with a promise to do better in the future, and you’ll make me a happy guy (though that’s not why you should do it.)

57

It’s also one of the few things the Straight Dope Administration can get really pissed off about. You might wanna think about that.

58

BTW, Scylla, JET posted before that he no longer is afflicted but that he remembers what it was like back then. So basically, he’s behaving in a jerkish manner.

59

I was wondering about that statement myself, Coldie. Thanks for clearing up my confusion on the matter. I thought it fell under the header of “Things You Better Not Do or You’re Outta Here”.

60

Scylla,
I wouldn’t hold my breath, if I were you. While I generally believe in giving most folks the benefit of the doubt and more than a few second chances, I don’t think JET’s going to follow your advice here.

It's possible JET may someday snap out of it and become a productive member of society, but I wouldn't risk any effort — in the real or cyberworld — defending him. When something looks like it's going to explode, it's best to keep your distance, so none of the shit sticks to you.

As for you, JET, here's some more vitriol for you to wallow in. I don't view you — as you evidently do — as some thought-provoking, tell-it-like-it is, radical, bad-ass, muthafucking, proud-to-be-a-pariah lightning rod.

You are very simply banal. There is no there, there, a fact that you attempt to hide with what you assume will be shocking statements that will prove to everyone how bad (cool) you are.

The truth is, you're just small.

So go ahead, dance on the graves of eight dead children.

You deserve more pity than they.